Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV impressions

[XR Martin]

Taxi driver I spoke to said they have to replace to batteries in Hybrid Camrys every twelve months...

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Taxi driver I spoke to said they have to replace to batteries in Hybrid Camrys every twelve months...

Sure he wasn't talking about the standard 12V batteries?
I wouldn't think the Camrys would be cost effective as taxis if the batteries are getting changed every year.

[Warrenk]

Are LifeP04 batteries used in the car. If they are they currently cost $1.52 ah and they are not getting any cheaper. If you have 12 kw of batteries that works out to be $18,000. This is not for pack prices or BMS's. LifeP04 batteries packed to be look similar to normal batteries currently sell for twice that price. Then there is the disposable cost of the old ones.

So the best thing to with these vehicles is to sell them before the battery warranty runs out.

Warren

[EA30TH]

Holden offers the 8 year warranty on the entire Voltec drivetrain, not just the battery.

As for battery deterioration the Volt has a 16.5kwH battery but 2013 onwards only utilize 10.8. That gives room for soft cycle as well as some coverage of degeneration.

The key to the battery life is temperature. Cars like the Volt run a separate cooling system just for the battery. The manual recommends users keep the car plugged in (not compulsory though) and the car will run the pumps and cooling system (or heating) to keep the battery in range even when the car is not being used. When the car charges you can also feel the air being drawn through the cooling system radiator via the grille.

The Leaf does not have this cooling system and users in places like Arizona USA are seeing rapid degeneration in the batteries.

Not sure on the Outlander????

[steve.zissou]

I looked into EV as I am off grid and was going to charge at home and then at work. Whilst i think they will be the future one day, they are not quite viable yet. Although I praise people for being early adopters and helping move the tech forward. (mainly because all i do is highway driving)

regarding highway fuel economy and the diesel comparison, I ended up getting a jeep grand Cherokee diesel (185kw 550nm). I get under 7l/100 on the free way and if i want to drive economically I can get into the 5's consistently. thats for a 2.3ton 4x4 that hustles pretty quickly (8 speed auto helps)

What i will probably get is a electric motor bike in a year or 2 (or a horse)

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by EA30TH

Holden offers the 8 year warranty on the entire Voltec drivetrain, not just the battery.

As for battery deterioration the Volt has a 16.5kwH battery but 2013 onwards only utilize 10.8. That gives room for soft cycle as well as some coverage of degeneration.

The key to the battery life is temperature. Cars like the Volt run a separate cooling system just for the battery. The manual recommends users keep the car plugged in (not compulsory though) and the car will run the pumps and cooling system (or heating) to keep the battery in range even when the car is not being used. When the car charges you can also feel the air being drawn through the cooling system radiator via the grille.

The Leaf does not have this cooling system and users in places like Arizona USA are seeing rapid degeneration in the batteries.

Not sure on the Outlander????

The battery has an internal fan that is also hooked up to the A/C.

[EA30TH]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

The battery has an internal fan that is also hooked up to the A/C.

I assume you mean the Leaf and yes the issue is liquid cooling as per Volt is proving better...

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by EA30TH

Holden offers the 8 year warranty on the entire Voltec drivetrain, not just the battery.

As for battery deterioration the Volt has a 16.5kwH battery but 2013 onwards only utilize 10.8. That gives room for soft cycle as well as some coverage of degeneration.

The key to the battery life is temperature. Cars like the Volt run a separate cooling system just for the battery. The manual recommends users keep the car plugged in (not compulsory though) and the car will run the pumps and cooling system (or heating) to keep the battery in range even when the car is not being used. When the car charges you can also feel the air being drawn through the cooling system radiator via the grille.

The Leaf does not have this cooling system and users in places like Arizona USA are seeing rapid degeneration in the batteries.
Not sure on the Outlander????

Thanks for sharing. That sounds like a worry and the fact that the Leaf only comes with a 3 year warranty...well, I think we know the reason for that now. Leaf is now the cheapest EV in this part of the world but clearly you get what you pay for.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by EA30TH

I assume you mean the Leaf and yes the issue is liquid cooling as per Volt is proving better...

The Outlander

[chevypower]

2015 Volvo XC90 T8 is the one to watch for now. 300 kW, 640 Nm and 60 grams of CO2 per km. I don't know what that will translate to for fuel consumption, but the Prius puts out 89g/km. Could that mean 3-4L/100km?

[whynot]

The PHEV is currently on a road trip through the Northern Rivers of NSW. While this has put a stop to the experiment on how low I could get the (petrol) fuel consumption to go, it does highlight the main advantage of a PHEV over an EV. When it runs out of battery, the petrol engine takes over.

Two fuel consumption figures to report. One refill was for 20l (actually 19.88l) for a neat 1,000km. This puts the petrol fuel consumption at 2l/100. However, that result was weighted by a trip out to the recent All Ford Day at Willowbank (round trip 150km). (Yeah, I slunked in through the back gate …) If that is removed, the fuel consumption for around town falls to 1.03l/100km. Even that is somewhat high as I am still doing demo runs for work colleagues, including showing off how the engine can recharge, wide open throttle runs, etc. For my daily home-work-home cycle, average fuel consumption would be 0.5l/100. With some care, I can make the work trip exclusively on battery. But, that means gingerly trudging up a few step hills (and there is very little fun in that), so as not to kick in petrol powered assistance.

The second fuel consumption report is a 400km run at 7.28l/100. This was a mainly highway work at 100 or 110, plus some town driving, and a short 20km section of rutted track. The battery has been kept fully charged (generally via the “save” button on the dash), which forces the PHEV to hold the battery at a fixed charge and to use petrol for all power requirements. However, even in this mode, the PHEV cheats a little. Under the bonnet there is a continual dance of the power trains. Sometimes the petrol engine is doing all of the work. But, when there is an increase in demand, like climbing a hill, the battery chimes in with support. On descent, the petrol engine cuts out and the lets gravity recharge the battery. As the road levels out, the battery comes back in to keep the speed up. The petrol engine returns gently, at first recharging the battery. Then, paralleling up with the battery, before finally providing all of the power for driving, and sending surplus to the battery to return the charge back where it was. It is very clever engineering, and I suspect is designed to use the battery to soak up the peaks and troughs in power demand, while leaving the petrol engine to operate at its most fuel efficient delivery points.

The place we are staying at has an interesting driveway. It is a 400 foot climb on a sealed, but very steep driveway through a forest, with three switchbacks. It is amazing to put the PHEV in battery mode, wind down the windows, and listen to it climb this driveway. Except for the crunch of loose gravel and the faint whine of the electric motors, it is a nearly silent climb. The wildlife is noisier than the PHEV. There is heaps of low down torque from the electric motors.

A deeper read of the manual reveals some interesting statistics. While the front and rear electric motors are rated at 60kW each, they also have a 30 minute rating of only 25kW each. (Those with electrical qualifications are probably saying ahhhh ...). While the petrol engine is rated at 87kW, the electric generator connected to it is only rated at 70kW (but there are no indications what the duty cycle is at this rating). Judging by the battery power meter, it takes around 25-30kW to push the PHEV down the highway at 110kph on the flat. Hill climbing can easily see the power meter go deep into the red (haven’t had the chance to take one eye off the road to read off a number). For highway work, it does pay to keep some battery in the tank, so to speak. Still, the PHEV has absolutely no problems climbing hills. The PHEV also sticks to its cruise control set point like glue. Also pleasingly, is how the PHEV sticks to the set point speed during it descent. Obviously it is doing so to slurp off spare kinetic energy for refilling the battery. (One thing that used to really annoy me about the diesel Territory is how the cruise control would occasionally “give up” on the downhill run.)

All up, still a high personal satisfaction rating from me for the PHEV.

[Rodge]

Sounds good. Have you tried it off road in any meaningful capacity yet ?

[mik]

Good write up Whynot, don't take this the wrong way old mate, there is no denying the fuel consumption figures are dam good, but it does seem like you are actually sacrificing some comforts to get the best consumption possible, would you have bothered shuting your ac off or your electric seats in your petrol car ?
Another thing and I'm only guessing but i suspect the battery life by the time they get to 30% their useful service life will be up and you will be on petrol for a very big percentage of the time, so I'm a bit skeptical of claims made by manufacturers that they will last x amount of years, but I'm happy to be wrong, have you spoken to any other owners in this regard?
Full marks for the warts an all write up.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by mik

don't take this the wrong way old mate,

Hi Milk,

You make two really important points. Both of which I too have considered at length. These are my thoughts …

Yes, you are correct. Normally, I would just turn the A/C on and forget about it. Certainly, in the first few months of ownership, I have been playing around with various settings to see exactly what can be achieved out of the battery. It has been a big surprise how much energy the A/C draws, even an inverter A/C that is more efficient that the standard compressor A/C arrangement in the typical vehicle. Even on a cold Brisbane morning (cold as in 10C), the compressor is running. At first glance, it seems inefficient to have both compressor and heater running, but I suppose it is to help dehumidify the air for demisting purposes. Come summer, I certainly will have the A/C on continuously and say “stuff it” to the energy use. By my reckoning, I will get 30-35km on battery and need around 5-10km on fuel to make it home. My rubbery maths suggests that overall fuel consumption will be around 1.75l/100km.

I think the way to look at the PHEV is not so much as an Electric Vehicle with a range extender petrol engine, but as an ICE power vehicle with a range extender battery. Depending on how the battery is charged, the energy cost is between a quarter to a half that of petrol. The trick is that while the vehicle is sitting unused, to take every possible opportunity to slurp up some energy from the electricity grid. For most, that will be overnight at home. But, if one can wangle mains power while the vehicle is sitting in the car park at work, so much the better.

I haven’t spoken to other PHEV owners about battery life, but I did quite a bit of research into Prius battery life. I don’t think it is an issue as such. First, there is heaps of high km Prius overseas with no reported battery issues. Second, there seems to be a lot of smarts with the onboard electronics to protect the battery. Battery physics (in terms of life verses charge/discharge cycles, charge/discharge rates, etc,) is well understood. It is not like a cheap consumer device with a small battery that is flogged mercilessly. I guess we wont know the real answer until some of the units have clocked up ten years and +150,000 km.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Sounds good. Have you tried it off road in any meaningful capacity yet ?

In short, no. The little trip on the dirt track was enough. All the time I was looking at the very sharp rocks, thinking about the 18” low-profile road-biased tyres and worrying that I was not carrying a spare tyre. Mind you, it was a very rough track. Lots of heavy corrugations, washouts, marbly gravel (for the tyres to skate on), and very sharp looking rocks. The vehicle was very stable. It drifted a little over the marbly gravel, but that was to be expected. The Outlander AWC has a display available that shows the yaw rates (as calculated by the stability control) and how it is applying torque. It barely moved off the neutral position.

[EA30TH]

Originally Posted by mik

Another thing and I'm only guessing but i suspect the battery life by the time they get to 30% their useful service life will be up and you will be on petrol for a very big percentage of the time, so I'm a bit skeptical of claims made by manufacturers that they will last x amount of years, but I'm happy to be wrong, have you spoken to any other owners in this regard?
Full marks for the warts an all write up.

Battery life is a good one. It depends on the manufacturer's take on how to handle the battery. On the Chevy Volt the actual battery capacity is 16.5kWh but the car only lets you use 10.5kWh. This places less stress on the battery pack and with cooling you get the 8 year warranty including for the entire powertrain. So far this approach (and parallel ways taken by Mitsu and Nissan) suggest batteries will in the main last the actual economic life of the car.

[whynot]

Clocked up another 1,000 km this month in the PHEV. Now that the weather is warmer, I am rarely using the climate control. For most of my driving, I have the sunroof either titled or open. I am generally doing the 40km round trip to and from work under 8kWh of electricity and around 100ml of fuel. Most evenings I arrive home with anywhere between 2.5 to 1kWh of battery life remaining.

For the first 800km, I used around 5l of fuel. Of that 5l, around 3l was burnt when I forgot to plug the PHEV in one evening and I had to drive to work on petrol. (Average fuel use was 0.63l/100km.) I also tacked on trip up to the coast (200km, using 6l/100km for the trip with the help from a fully charged battery). Total for the month is 17l of fuel for 1000km of travel.

A couple of little quirks have appeared on occasion. A few times, when I have tried to start the PHEV, the display lights up, but there is an error message, and the engine refuses to engage. Cycling the power on and off a few times, and it comes good. The other quirk only happened once, I was pulling into traffic and floored the accelerator. The engine sprang into life to assist (as normal). I then had to back off on the accelerator for a few seconds (and the engine shut down). When I reapplied full throttle, the petrol engine did not respond and I accelerated somewhat more slowly under battery power. It was a weird experience, but only happened once.

I have mastered the technique of plugging the charger cable in. To be honest, I now plug and unplug the PHEV without even thinking about it. I spend more time plugging in my iPhone at the end of the day (to recharge) than I do to plug the PHEV in.

I am still very happy with the purchase and totally blown away by the technology in the PHEV.

[whynot]

Another update on the Outlander PHEV. Over the last few months, the PHEV has been doing mainly city commutes (home-work-home). Last top up with fuel was 15.4l for 1526km of travel (around 1.01l/100km). It should have been less than that, but I forget to plug in the PHEV when I got home on four occasions (I think). I was simply getting sloppy, in that the actions to plug the PHEV was becoming too automatic. The good news with the PHEV is that once one has gotten over the d’oh moment of not plugging it in the recharge, the petrol engine kicks into life and provides the power.

Since the last post, total fuel burn has been 71.4l for 4391km of travel (around 1.62l/100km). This included some additional city driving beyond the range of the battery requiring petrol consumption. Over the life of the vehicle, total km is just over 7600 for 200l of fuel (around 3l/100km). Remember that the car has been on a few holiday road trips, and this has pushed up the petrol burn.

The recent drop in petrol prices has lengthened the PHEV payback period from around 5.5 years when it was purchased to presently around 8 years. Yes, it does not make financial sense to go PHEV at the current petrol prices. Still, if petrol prices increase just as suddenly, say, in a few years’ time, the payback period will shorten again.

In terms of electricity consumption, the PHEV is adding around 50kWh to the weekly electricity bill (around $10 per week off-peak). Interestingly, this is only slightly above the same amount of power that my 1.5kW solar PV system is generating. And, when you think about it, this is where the paradigm shift really occurs. The technology is starting to get to the point that not only is technically possible, but getting financially feasible to couple solar, inverters, batteries, and PHEV technology. It is not there yet, but it is certainly technically feasible to run on solar power for the daily commute and need very little imported petrol. If you could talk the boss into installing a solar PV at work (and you pay the cost), the “fuel” cost could be as little as $20 per week over three years. About the same that cost that one would pay for petrol. (When this occurs, think of the geopolitical ramifications.)

What is the most annoying thing about the PHEV? Well, actually, it is the noise from the other cars and trucks on the road. You see, most mornings I head off to work with the windows down and the sunroof open. It is very relaxing to cruise around the suburban streets in near silence. Unfortunately, the fun stops when one hits traffic and one finds themselves sitting beside a clattering diesel belching out diesel fumes. Up go the power windows and on comes the A/C.

While the PHEV will not burn any rubber, the Telsa shows the fun that can be had with a fully electric vehicle at the other end of the price range.

Still very happy with the PHEV. There have been no other issues and it has been very fuss free motoring. In some respects, the novelty has worn off and I treat it like any other car.

[Crazy Dazz]

Does OP still have the PHEV?
Any update after 5 years?

I'm particularly interested in how well it functions purely as a (Series) Hybrid, without any plug-in power added?

[harrymaxson]

Originally Posted by whynot

Would you believe it could pull the skin of a rice custard?

Err, no. Unfortunately, no burnouts. For starters, it has full time AWD.

Electric motors produce their maximum torque from rest. Apparently, the front and rear electric motors in the PHEV have slightly different gearing ratios to give a better spread of acceleration across the speed range. That means less low down urge out of the PHEV.

But, it doesn't mean that electric vehicles cannot be fast

http://www.topgear.com/au/videos/electric-shocker

charged battery,4wd lock on, eco off and smash the throttle to the floor. wont be too many cars around that will get near you from a standing start

[harrymaxson]

My wife also has the PHEV, which replaced her 04 Territory. Why?

She is a mobile dog groomer, and daily tows a 1100kg dog grooming salon. She averages 8.05l/100klm while towing. The improved low down torque is what allows these figures to be achieved. 130000 klms on it now and nothing has broken. as an urban tow vehicle, it is great. As a touring vehicle towing a poptop caravan, forget it. battery lasts about an hour tops, and then you are averaging about 15l/100klm. But when you finally get to the van park (after many fuel stops, 40 litre tank doesnt go far at 15l/100klm) you can plug in and charge for free to do your local sight seeing. I would love a Tesla, but that money buys lots of petrol!

[Crazy Dazz]

I'm a little confused as to how it actually works, because I have read a few different descriptions.
It doesn't help when people bandy about terminology that seems to change with the seasons.
Some time back, Hybrid refereed to the original Prius or Honda system, a traction-motor bolted to a petrol engine. An electric drive car, with a generator was to be called a "hyper," but that never really took off (and hypercar came to mean something different.)
Then people started to refer to the original type as a "Series" Hybrid, and the newer (eg Toyota's Synergy drive) as "Parallel". Whilst the analogy wasn't strictly valid, it was meant to describe a system where you used both all the time, or one in which you could use either.
But then along came systems like Mitsubishi's, and it is often refereed to as having series and parallel modes, with different but more accurate meanings.

What seems very vague, but would seem a very obvious issue, is whether there is any direct connection from the engine to the wheels?
Various literature refers to being able to drive the car using both, or only the petrol engine.

[whynot]

An extract from an article that I wrote ...

The Outlander PHEV has a 12kWh battery located under the floorplan. This consists of 80 lithium ion cells connected together to provide a nominal 300 volts, and weighs 184kg. The on board computer restricts the available capacity to 10kWh for long-term battery life. To keep the battery cool, it taps into the vehicle’s air conditioning system. Also under the floor is a petrol tank with a volume of 45 litres.

Driving the rear axle is a 60kW brushless DC, permanent magnet, synchronous electric motor with a maximum torque of 195Nm and rev limit of 9300 RPM. This connects to the rear wheels via a single ratio gearbox. The rear electric motor and all high voltage control units are water-cooled via a shared coolant loop powered by a dedicated electric water pump.

At the front is a complex power unit consisting of; a second 60kW electric motor with a maximum torque of 137Nm and 12700RPM rev limit, a petrol engine rated at 87kW and 186Nm @ 4500rpm, and a generator connected to the petrol engine rated at 70kW. In addition, a computer-controlled clutch can couple the petrol engine directly to the front wheels via a single ratio gearbox.

Under the hood is an all-electric affair. Not only does the power steering use electric power to assist, the air conditioner runs using an electric inverter compressor, the coolant/water pump is electric, the oil pump is electric, and so too is the vacuum pump for the brake boost. All up, the Outlander PHEV weighs in at 1810kg, about 400kg on top of the base model petrol and 180kg on the diesel variant.

The PHEV has three distinct driving modes: a pure EV drive mode, series-hybrid drive mode, and parallel- hybrid drive mode.

In EV mode, the electric battery powers the vehicle. Peak power draw from the battery is limited to 70kW to preserve battery life. However, after 15% power losses in the DC to AC inverters, this leaves 60kW for the motors. This is more than enough power to keep up with the traffic. Like all EV, the PHEV uses its motors for regenerative braking to recharge the batteries when slowing the vehicle. Steady state driving in a 60kph zone sees power draw around 5kW to 10kW, rising to around 20kW to 25kW driving on a flat highway at 100kph. Typical EV range is around 50km. Obviously driving style and preferences with the climate-controll

The second drivetrain mode is when the PHEV switches to series hybrid mode when power requirements exceed 60kW, like during heavy acceleration or climbing steep hills. The petrol engine comes to life with a slight shudder, and then depending on power requirements can run anywhere from idle to full throttle. The 70kW output from the petrol-generator assists the 60kW output from the battery. There is a slight power lag as the petrol engine comes online, much like a turbo lag on a diesel-powered vehicle.

When the battery is below 26% State of Charge (SoC) the PHEV defaults to series hybrid mode around town. Toyota Prius owners would be familiar with this mode. At low speed, the PHEV’s petrol engine cuts in and out, recharging the battery back up to 30% SOC and then running the battery down to 26% SOC. Provided there is some residual charge in the battery, maximum power available is 120kW (the maximum combined rating of both front and rear electric motors).

The third mode is parallel hybrid mode, and it is only available when the vehicle speed is above 65kph and the battery is flat, or at any speed above 120kph. In this mode, the computer releases a clutch that connects the petrol engine via a single ratio gearbox to drive the front wheels. As steady state driving on flat road at 100kph only requires 20-25kW of power, the computer can decide if the generator should absorb any excess power available. The engine management system can then elect to recharge the battery. Or, when AWD lock is engaged to send some of this power to the rear wheels.

Provided there is some remaining charge in the battery, heavy throttle application (like when overtaking or climbing steep hills) will see the petrol engine power the front wheels and the battery power (mainly the) the rear electric motors.

While in parallel hybrid mode, the generator draws off a small amount power from the petrol motor, around 2-5% power, to generate electricity. The Engine Management Unit then transfers this bleed power to the front and rear motors. By providing a small amount of electrical power to the motors, it eliminates the uncontrolled magnetic field, which the rotating electric motors would generate at high speed and no load. In other words, it prevents the electric motors from “dragging” on the drive train.

By default, the PHEV will run in EV mode until it has discharged the batteries down to 26% SoC, and then switches to hybrid mode. However, the driver can override this programming using one of two buttons (see Figure 12). Activating the “SAVE” button forces the PHEV to stop drawing power from the batteries, hold the current State of Charge (e.g. SoC 60%), and run in the appropriate hybrid mode. Mitsubishi suggest this mode is useful when the driver wishes to save battery power for a certain part of their journey, like inside London’s dedicated EV zone.