BF XR8 price puts it out of market

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by VZSS250

This is not meant to incite a flame war, just a debate so be nice people.

They are trying....aren’t we guy's.. :

[SSBUB]

Originally Posted by ltd

OK then I'll bite.



Seems like you're inferring that the LS1 is compliant



Hmmm. As for the opinion thing it is an opinion shared by a large proportion of the members of this forum. (check the title and tell me where the holden name is). I admire your objectivity in the matter though by not listing Ford's faults because you would know. You told us.





Ahh, the moral high ground. After insinuating that we are "one eye", yet we are all expected to sit here and take your subtle jibes at Ford. To use your vernacular; "check your post".
I have noticed that in most if not all posts you are in, you are espousing Holden propoganda under the guise that "I like both cars", yet you have never actually said anything positive about ford or their new models or their technology have you. It's always been a subtle little jab here, dig there at ford and in any poll at any cost choose Holden.

Kim Beazley lost the 2001 election because he sat on the fence and tried to have it both ways on asylum seekers; so I ask you, as the owner of a Holden who constantly reminds us that you like both brands yet regularly choose holden; what side of the fence do you sit on? To me and others it seems you're really an antagonising Holden fan, playing both sides against eachother yet careful and subtle enough to not overstep the line.

I realise that you quite rightfully can accuse me of espousing Ford propoganda, but again I ask you to look in your address bar and note the name. These forums are Ford's turf. We don't join holden forums, create misleading posts and put the boot in there to annoy people, we discuss things here.

And by the way I am not a Ford only person. I am a never again Holden person who saw the light.

I dont know why i keep replying to you, for what you come back with is pretty dissapointing....but in any event.
I will state it for a 2nd time. Read carefully now. The ls1 is not compliant. But guess what. Today it IS. For the xr8 vs ssz, which is today my blue veined friend, euro 3 is NOT an issue. It will be later down the track i realize
Now i said i dont know much about ford yes, its true. I dont pretend to know alot about them but it seems you are begging for me to list some problems the 5.4 has obviously because you think i know NOTHING about them. I know a little but not a lot, so to phrase you, ill bite.

Positives of the OHC, which i am not a fence sitter, i doubt you went and read all of my posts do bring that one up, but just to please you here goes:

1. Less valve train inertia - higher RPM
2. Easier cam removal and refitting - at a cost of far more complicated design and cost to develop
3. Easier to implement variable timing

Negatives:

1. Cam belts need changing, single row chains of excessive length can stretch very easily
2. Extra parasitc losses due to more frictional components in the valve train, more cams and valves etc......
3. If valves need adjusting it can become your worst nightmare if using a shim and bucket setup
4. Just the plain complexity of the setup

OHC and pushrod engines are about the same vintage, so the dinosaur tag can't really be justified.

Another main advantage of pushrod valve trains versus OHC is packaging. The pushrod design allows for a very low head profile as you only need to accomodate the rocker arm above the valve.
See what room there is left alongside the Ford V8 in the engine bay of the Falcon. The old Windsor had heaps more room.
Another point of interest is that a large number of valves does not make an efficient cylinder head if the basic design is stuffed


Material selection alone such as cast iron vs alloy blocks can not only negatively impact on the weight of the engine but will have a negative impact on the thermal efficiency hence fuel consumption etc.

Dont lose sight of the fact that around 50% of any engines design brief is to make it use its fuel efficiently. Power Wars are something that car magazines start, and the reality is that when its up in the power stakes the inefficiency of the basic LS1 design starts to show through. When you spend $30 to gently drive a 300kw C4B 100km around the city you will get my point.

If power and torque was the name of the game then we would all be driving turbo cars, and they would definitely be overhead cam.

Look at the Zo6 corvette, this car in US mags constantly eats the DOHC ferrari 360 modena's and DOHC 911 turbos for breakfast and 'only' costs $100,000 dollars. And yes it has got a LS6 a pushrod engine... It is cheaper and faster than ferraris. Other than quality and ride it spanks exotics over $200,000 more than it

So why do I prefer the ls1? cheap, inexpensive, easy to maintain and can get in excess of 400hp unopened....like i said i dont know a lot about the 5.4, i know a little.

Now continue to label me another antogonizing holden fan, fence-sitter, or biased poster or whatever. All it does is make me smile because it means your getting frustrated. Cheers :

[geckoGT]

I just have to ask, if pushrod 2 vavle is superior, why are all other manufacturers going for multi cam, multi valve?

Answer, because it is more efficient.

Anyway this has gotten so off topic it is not funny, Boring!!!!

[rodderz]

There has been some good points of discussion in this thread with some good informative tech points also (as per SSBub's last post), but the cracks at one another needs to stop

We all have our choice of cars but the overall good point is that we have a good choice of aussie cars and we shouldnt be slandering others for buying one over the other

[SSBUB]

Originally Posted by rodderz

There has been some good points of discussion in this thread with some good informative tech points also (as per SSBub's last post), but the cracks at one another needs to stop

We all have our choice of cars but the overall good point is that we have a good choice of aussie cars and we shouldnt be slandering others for buying one over the other

i agree. I like both holdens and fords, but drive a holden and know the holden better. I am here coz i do like the BA range when it came out, it was Fords saving grace imo, and am here to learn as much as i can from it. Who knows, i too could give up the pushrod for the boss one day, but for now, all $$ point to pushrods :eclipsee_

[MITCHAY]

Obviously pushrods can't be all that bad if they have been used for so long, so I don't know why people keep bagging them all the time. Our VT has never missed a beat.

I don't know a lot about Commodores and I know s**t all about Falcons. To emphasize that point I didn't know Falcons were I6s till I joined these forums lol.

[fiery]

Originally Posted by VZSS250

This is a disappointing move by Ford who have now officially given the budget performance game away
the XR8 is no longer an option for young boy racers seeking blistering V8 performance at a sub $50k price.

Ok I cleared out the rot I dont even want to think about going into...
Aww it is a shame that 'young boy racers' cant afford the new price......
THANK GOD FOR THAT is all Im gonna say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SSBUB]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Find very many other manufacturers that still use push rod, single cam, not many! it is dinosaur technology that is running in borrowed time. Don't give the "it's proven technology" line, so was the side vavle before it died a evolutionary death. The single cam V8 will die, the fickle market place will see to that.

SS (from holden web page)

POWER (ECE, kW) 175 @ 6000 rpm 190 @ 6500 rpm 250 @ 5600 rpm

TORQUE (ECE, Nm) 320 @ 2800 rpm 340 @ 3200 rpm 470 @ 4800 rpm

Obviously the last line are the figures for the V8

XR8 (from ford web site)

260kW of power @ 5250rpm and 500Nm of torque @ 4000rpm1

Power and torque are both higher in the XR8 and both come in at lower revs.
Although I will agree that the argument of which engine has which problem should be left out, as both have issues and we are talking of cars that have not been on the market long enough to know if they still have those problems. Therefore such an argument would be totally unproductive.

even though the issue is dead and buried now, the power figures mean nothing if the ohc engine is about 90kg heavier....power output is only as good as how it makes the vehicle move...thus a stock vyss at 235fwkw is quicker than the boss 260...why? tis all about weight.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by SSBUB

why? tis all about weight.

You may find that things like dif ratios, tyre choice, ecu limiters, etc etc all play a big part too!

[SSBUB]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

You may find that things like dif ratios, tyre choice, ecu limiters, etc etc all play a big part too!

well yeah that too _2:

[MITCHAY]

I think the overall message though is this. If you want an SS then buy it. If you want an XR8 then buy that. Hell if you got enough money, BUY BOTH!! Regardless of what technologly it does or doesnt have, if you dont enjoy the car , then there is no point in owning it.

[rodderz]

Exactly... if I had a huge wad of cash I'de consider buying both a new FPV, and an LS2. I'de rather drive the FPV daily but the gains from LS2 are great.... over 30kw's gain just from a tune aint bad as a few shops have done, and 300rwkw's with minor bolt ons added as well

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I think the overall message though is this. If you want an SS then buy it. If you want an XR8 then buy that. Hell if you got enough money, BUY BOTH!! Regardless of what technologly it does or doesnt have, if you dont enjoy the car , then there is no point in owning it.

That is the most intelligent post I have seen on this thread for a long time. To answer the original question, I believe that the consensus amongst the contributors to this forum is a resounding no. It appears the majority do not believe the XR8 has been priced out of the market and there are sufficient advances to justify the price rise. Let's just see what the market says as that is the only certain proof available.

[Teki04]

Originally Posted by SSBUB

Noone has explained the tech merits to me, all i ever here is 'wow the box is good'. Hence me asking what these merits are.

Um, well.... firstly it has two more gears out: I think it is also selectable, unlike the SS. Oh, not to mention it doesnt CLUNK into the gear :

Ok, I do drive a Ford, but before i did, i was a total Holden fan and still am. But since i did get a Ford, and have been on the forums, i have taken an interest in the Ford. Hell, i like the look of the BA/F.

I still like the Holden SS though, in manual. But Auto Vs Auto, no doubt the XR8 would win!

I think, it comes down to personal preference (as does every purchase). Price does play a part, but maybe not so much when your paying $50K. Im sure you will find a dealer SOMEWHERE that matches the price.

As for posting pics on the VT to VZ changes, at least put relevant SS pictures. The Executive is possibly the ugliest car roaming the streets.

The ownership is all personal preference. Hell, most magazines i read cannot make up their mind either. Sure, the BA/F might be heavy and not get as fast lap times, but its more technologically advance, comfortable, and dare i say... the winner. The SS compromises too much for outright speed. So, whether you want speed, or overall packaging, the choice is yours.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by SSBUB

I dont know why i keep replying to you, for what you come back with is pretty dissapointing....but in any event.
I will state it for a 2nd time. Read carefully now. The ls1 is not compliant. But guess what. Today it IS. For the xr8 vs ssz, which is today my blue veined friend, euro 3 is NOT an issue. It will be later down the track i realize
Now i said i dont know much about ford yes, its true. I dont pretend to know alot about them but it seems you are begging for me to list some problems the 5.4 has obviously because you think i know NOTHING about them. I know a little but not a lot, so to phrase you, ill bite.

Positives of the OHC, which i am not a fence sitter, i doubt you went and read all of my posts do bring that one up, but just to please you here goes:

1. Less valve train inertia - higher RPM
2. Easier cam removal and refitting - at a cost of far more complicated design and cost to develop
3. Easier to implement variable timing

Negatives:

1. Cam belts need changing, single row chains of excessive length can stretch very easily
2. Extra parasitc losses due to more frictional components in the valve train, more cams and valves etc......
3. If valves need adjusting it can become your worst nightmare if using a shim and bucket setup
4. Just the plain complexity of the setup

OHC and pushrod engines are about the same vintage, so the dinosaur tag can't really be justified.

Another main advantage of pushrod valve trains versus OHC is packaging. The pushrod design allows for a very low head profile as you only need to accomodate the rocker arm above the valve.
See what room there is left alongside the Ford V8 in the engine bay of the Falcon. The old Windsor had heaps more room.
Another point of interest is that a large number of valves does not make an efficient cylinder head if the basic design is stuffed


Material selection alone such as cast iron vs alloy blocks can not only negatively impact on the weight of the engine but will have a negative impact on the thermal efficiency hence fuel consumption etc.

Dont lose sight of the fact that around 50% of any engines design brief is to make it use its fuel efficiently. Power Wars are something that car magazines start, and the reality is that when its up in the power stakes the inefficiency of the basic LS1 design starts to show through. When you spend $30 to gently drive a 300kw C4B 100km around the city you will get my point.

If power and torque was the name of the game then we would all be driving turbo cars, and they would definitely be overhead cam.

Look at the Zo6 corvette, this car in US mags constantly eats the DOHC ferrari 360 modena's and DOHC 911 turbos for breakfast and 'only' costs $100,000 dollars. And yes it has got a LS6 a pushrod engine... It is cheaper and faster than ferraris. Other than quality and ride it spanks exotics over $200,000 more than it

So why do I prefer the ls1? cheap, inexpensive, easy to maintain and can get in excess of 400hp unopened....like i said i dont know a lot about the 5.4, i know a little.

Now continue to label me another antogonizing holden fan, fence-sitter, or biased poster or whatever. All it does is make me smile because it means your getting frustrated. Cheers :

Haven't really answered any questions.
You contradict yourself too. Not to mention labelling the ford head design stuffed - that will go down well here.
Now pushing the pushrod V DOHC arguement. Hmm, OK.

Regarding the negatives you mentioned.
Doesn't Holden promote their 3.6 with the OHC as being the latest technology and espouse its virtues over pushrod?
Ford don't have timing belts.
WTF is parasitc loss?
Why would the valves need adjusting? Ford has self adjusting lifters for that.
Chains snapping, wouldn't the holden be just as susceptible to the same?
Complexity of design? Well, maybe to a Holden engineer its complex.
I suppose engines under load have never bent or jammed a rod have they.

Corvette Vs Ferrari now? Well, ask any normal person what they would prefer an iconic italian marque or a GM car with an oversized engine that gets better straightline speed. If speed is all that's important to you then keep driving the SS, because essentially that's all it had over the BA - straight line speed.

Personally I couldn't care less about what car you drive, my experience has proven that GMH is an incredibly difficult company to deal with, and their after sales service and customer focus programs fall way off the mark. I liked the look of the WH and as such bought a new caprice in early 2000. After 3 motors, 2 transmissions (from sitting in traffic with the aircon on in summer), only 11,000klms and a total of 3 months off the road my barrister and I both decided that GMH should give me a refund.
Several depositions and threats of a civil suit later GMH begrudgingly obliged and returned my money for goods not being of merchantable quality. At no time did they wish to help, they tried to land me with the last engines cost - and it still rattled anyway (apparently valvetrain noise not pistonslap), and the only time GMH were interested in setting up a meeting to discuss the return of the car was when they were threatened with a class action that would have received widespread publicity through advertising for litigants in the media, and from other disgruntled motorists I met who felt they too had been deceived.

So in short I am not making a hollow mockery of Holden, I am making an experienced, educated mockery of holden. As per your suggestion of me being frustrated and having too much time, you can check my post count vs yours and these posts take moments of my time as I can type pretty fast by typing with both hands; furthermore the only frustration I have is of a mass marketing machine selling second rate vehicles that have been thrown together from a parts bin of Latvian engineered leftovers.

I'm also frustrated that every time I attended an accident as part of the NSWFB and a commodore was involved we would have to use the jaws of life to get the poor occupant out of a poorly designed and constructed vehicle. (Watch the roof buckle in a small accident). Your attempts to undermine others knowledge is rather fanciful, because you'll find most members here are quite knowledgeable and some are even unbias.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by ltd

I'm also frustrated that every time I attended an accident as part of the NSWFB and a commodore was involved we would have to use the jaws of life to get the poor occupant out of a poorly designed and constructed vehicle. (Watch the roof buckle in a small accident). Your attempts to undermine others knowledge is rather fanciful, because you'll find most members here are quite knowledgeable and some are even unbias.

Good point, as a member of the emergency services myself I must say I have had to attend accidents involving cutting people out, some commodores and no falcons. Simple test, open a door and then jack up one wheel. On the commodore you will not be able to close the door easily while the wheel is in the air, on a BA/BF you can, Why? It is called structural integrity. Anyway I am stooping to the mine is better than yours argument and that is a load of crap.
The topic has been answered, can this not die like worthless antagonisation such as this should? Holden brothers, accept that no one here agrees with you and move on, you are not going to win here because we all have driven the product and believe in its advantages, that is why we own them. If you want to start this topic and have a win, may I suggest LS1.com or commodore forums?

[VZSS250]

I think both the XR8 and the SS offer similar performance in similar, though adequately differentiated packages which have, to date at least, given open minded buyers in the market for a cheap V8 sports sedan a choice between two cars. My concern was that this difference in RRP now makes it hard to choose between the two on their advantages/disadvantages alone.

For me, this debate about the Ford motor being technologically superior...it does not make sence that extra valves and overhead cams make a better motor if:

-the Boss is heavier;
-the Boss is about the size of a truck engine (Ford owners - have you seen how small a 5.7 litre Gen III is?)
-their is significantly more mechanical friction going through the Boss;
-the power output is not materially any better than Gen III equivalents;
-the Gen III provides better times on the strip and track;

Remember, it is not the means, but the ends that count. This is why I bought the SS...but now I would buy it regardless because it is cheaper.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

.................................................. .................. because we all have driven the product and believe in its advantages, that is why we own them.

I would just add that many of the respondants own drive and have travelled many miles in both marques of vehicles.

Those that argue with passion whilst never having experiencing the oppositions vehicles or indeed in many cases their favoured vehicles are not in a position to be too critical of either! This doesn't deny them a say but I would remind them to keep some perspective and learn from others.

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by VZSS250

-the power output is not materially any better than Gen III equivalents;
-the Gen III provides better times on the strip and track;

-Materially any better? What do you mean here?
-GenIII is also in a much lighter car. Take the weight out of the Falcon and then see its strip and track times.

Compare to oldskool Cortinas. With a 250 in them, they gave V8 Toranas a scare. A 250 in an XD however... much slower due to weight difference.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by VZSS250

I think both the XR8 and the SS offer similar performance in similar, though adequately differentiated packages which have, to date at least, given open minded buyers in the market for a cheap V8 sports sedan a choice between two cars. My concern was that this difference in RRP now makes it hard to choose between the two on their advantages/disadvantages alone.

For me, this debate about the Ford motor being technologically superior...it does not make sence that extra valves and overhead cams make a better motor if:

-the Boss is heavier;
-the Boss is about the size of a truck engine (Ford owners - have you seen how small a 5.7 litre Gen III is?)
-their is significantly more mechanical friction going through the Boss;
-the power output is not materially any better than Gen III equivalents;
-the Gen III provides better times on the strip and track;

Remember, it is not the means, but the ends that count. This is why I bought the SS...but now I would buy it regardless because it is cheaper.

The boss is smaller, the gen3 is a truck engine too, riding in the chevy tahoe and suburban and 2500, 1500 pickup variants.

Where do you guys come up with this crap? Friction, WTF are you talking about. Maybe the armchair engineers here can go and get a job at Scairbus trying to fix the problems with the Gay380. If you want I'll post pictures

[VZSS250]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

-Materially any better? What do you mean here?
-GenIII is also in a much lighter car. Take the weight out of the Falcon and then see its strip and track times.

By saying that the power output of the Boss is not materially any better that the Gen III, I meant the power output is not any better, especially when you go into the way the power ratings are calculated.

As for the second point...I suppose the XR8 would be just as quick as the SS if it weighed the same...BUT ITS DOESNT.

Can someone please substantiate my claim that the Boss motor is far bigger than the Gen III as a result of its overhead cams?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by VZSS250

By saying that the power output of the Boss is not materially any better that the Gen III, I meant the power output is not any better, especially when you go into the way the power ratings are calculated.

As for the second point...I suppose the XR8 would be just as quick as the SS if it weighed the same...BUT ITS DOESNT.

Can someone please substantiate my claim that the Boss motor is far bigger than the Gen III as a result of its overhead cams?

Its smaller in capacity..
What's the KW/L? of the 2?
48.15 for the XR8 v 43.86 for the SS for both engines as fitted to the XR8 and SS...
Thats is a good measure of efficiency and a demonstration of the difference in technology between the 2..

[fast66]

VZSS250, SSBUB, and any other Holden fan I've missed, just give it up. With the exception of a few, the majority of the repondants on this thread are pure one eyed Ford fans, (as you would expect) and regardless of any attempts to have an intelligent discussion, your efforts will be fruitless.
As such it is quite niave of you to raise a topic like this on a FORD forum and expect any different. Just like if a blue blood like 'LTD' was to go and post something on LS1 like "Why is it that although Ford clearly has a better vehicle, Holden kills Ford in sales" It just won't be a productive thread.
Perhaps there is a forum that is not biased one way or the other where comparisons can be made without patriotic emotion taking over logical and informed discussion, because it's clearly not here.
Just leave us to discuss how great Fords are in our comfortable desk chairs, and you do the same about Holdens on LS1.
:

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by fast66

Perhaps there is a forum that is not biased one way or the other where comparisons can be made without patriotic emotion taking over logical and informed discussion, because it's clearly not here.

FAST66 the exit is that way ---------------------->

Please close the door on your exit!!!!

How dare you claim a forum is narrow minded simply because your crusade to change the world to you way of thinking is not going according to plan. AFF prides itself on an open minded and welcoming outlook. Diverse viewpoints are given every opportunity and peoples rights to those opinions are protected.

I'm sure the Holden fans here can make their own minds up, or are you intent on having them all follow your thinking too? You don't by any chance have a toothbrush moustache? Do you ?

[MADDER]

By the way everyone, some more facts.

The list price of a standard VZ SS is $51,290 (man or auto) which is only $40 cheaper than the base BF XR8. This sheds light on the fact that the first post was heavily loaded and baited whether inadvertantly or not.

SO rather than the suggestion that the XR8 is overpricing into the "premium V8 sports sedan segment competing alongside the Calais and Fairmont Ghia" we can now see that thats where the SS sits also.

The SSZ is effectively a last gasp effort to load up an outgoing model with the lot at a discounted price to detract attention from the new Ford lineup, something that Holden has been very good at.

I admittedly watch little TV but have seen the SSZ ad about 10 times as well as the factory discount one about the same, yet not a single BF Falcon Ad. Does Ford think its going to walk out the door???

THE BOTTOM LINE

This thread has got nothing to do with the BF XR8 being overpriced but rather that the SSZ is a heavily discounted and loaded model. Hats off to Holden for doing so at would seem to be a good buy and the price alone will bring people into the showrooms (unless they're one-eyed Ford people). What I strongly suspect is that the SSZ will become the default production version of the SS until VE with very little discounting available in the short term. When VE SS comes out don't be surprised if its base price is in the $52k range unless the 45% foreign content allows a price cut from VZ.

In regards to the LS1 vs Boss argument that this thread has degenerated into:

I personally think the best measure of of the effectiveness of the LS1 versus the Boss is the engine's power/weight ratio. In other words how much does the engine weigh and what power does it put out.

Unfortunately I'm sure this favours the LS1 considerably. No point in the the Boss putting out better power from smaller capacity if the unit itself provides a significant weight penalty. We all must remember that a significant portion of the Boss Falcon's weight over an LS1/2 Holden is the engine weight.

[SSBUB]

Originally Posted by fast66

VZSS250, SSBUB, and any other Holden fan I've missed, just give it up. With the exception of a few, the majority of the repondants on this thread are pure one eyed Ford fans, (as you would expect) and regardless of any attempts to have an intelligent discussion, your efforts will be fruitless.
As such it is quite niave of you to raise a topic like this on a FORD forum and expect any different. Just like if a blue blood like 'LTD' was to go and post something on LS1 like "Why is it that although Ford clearly has a better vehicle, Holden kills Ford in sales" It just won't be a productive thread.
Perhaps there is a forum that is not biased one way or the other where comparisons can be made without patriotic emotion taking over logical and informed discussion, because it's clearly not here.
Just leave us to discuss how great Fords are in our comfortable desk chairs, and you do the same about Holdens on LS1.
:

You are right, reason is overthrown by emotion sometimes. Thats why im not responding anymore because civil, unfotunately, doesnt exist with some people and it can degenerate into personal comments. We could go back and forth all day, but iv decided to let sleeping dogs lie because this is a ford forum after all _2:

[fast66]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

FAST66 the exit is that way ---------------------->

Please close the door on your exit!!!!

How dare you claim a forum is narrow minded simply because your crusade to change the world to you way of thinking is not going according to plan. AFF prides itself on an open minded and welcoming outlook. Diverse viewpoints are given every opportunity and peoples rights to those opinions are protected.

I'm sure the Holden fans here can make their own minds up, or are you intent on having them all follow your thinking too? You don't by any chance have a toothbrush moustache? Do you ?

A little harsh don't you think? What exactly is this crusade im on?
What im basically saying, (albeit with a degree of sarcasm), is that this is a Ford Forum, and as such THE MAJORITY of respondants are biased to Ford, and therefore unbiased discussion is unlikely.
If AFF is so open to opinions, then mine is just as valid as anyone elses, so who is wearing the Toothbrush moustache?
You can have your Ford any colour, as long as its BLUE!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by fast66

A little harsh don't you think? What exactly is this crusade im on?
What im basically saying, (albeit with a degree of sarcasm), is that this is a Ford Forum, and as such THE MAJORITY of respondants are biased to Ford, and therefore unbiased discussion is unlikely.
If AFF is so open to opinions, then mine is just as valid as anyone elses, so who is wearing the Toothbrush moustache?
You can have your Ford any colour, as long as its BLUE!

I think the majority of Ford based respondants have been remarkebly balanced and have constructed their arguements backed with factual evidence rather than personal opinion...

[MADDER]

Given that, as I've had to point out, the original post in this thread was grossly misinformed in more ways than one it was no more than bait which a heap of us took, hook, line and sinker.

I request the thread be closed due to the fact it was doomed from the start. I also suggest that anybody that even thinks of dropping a post like this again think twice and do a bit of research, or at least ask some questions rather than stating rubbish as fact.

Threads like this just end up as pain and hurt for everyone.

[Quasi]

Originally Posted by VZSS250

The BF XR8 price has risen by $1,300 to more than $52K and now cannot compete with the VZ SSZ at $49,990.

So we are expected to pay $1,300 extra for what?

A vehicle that doesn't wear a Holden badge......sounds like a bargain to me.