Would legal venues stop hoons?

[Fireblade]

How about you quote the rest of my response and you will see what I wrote about penalties if innocents are harmed.

I and even one of our pollies here in SA have been a victim of an Assault with very real harm done and the charges have been dropped because of a lack of evidence but you want someone convicted on a what if?

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by sudszy

I have to fix the problem? rather than paying money to not have these morons cause mayhem(commonly known as extortion)have made some suggestions as to which direction we should take;

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showpos...5&postcount=19

oh but the bleeding hearts here ....?

We also have a problem that many young people are being raised in this country without seriously being introduced to any worthwhile pastimes or physical activity with which to keep them healthy etc. They have video games and once they turn 18 they have hooning, its a problem in many countries like the US, but not most of europe, perhaps we can look abroad for ideas.

That one lone post is not a suggestion for anything, except your own skewed perception of the actual issue...

The avenues that previously existed for both hoons and car enthusiasts alike are being closed down, but with no other option given for them...

Haha, yes, lets look abroad for ideas, Europe in particular...AND UP THE SPEED LIMIT TO 200KM/H!

First genuinely positive idea I've seen!

[xisled]

Last night me and my friends went for a drive to Chapel st and then for a cruise down the Princes Highway to meet some friends at Noble Park Maccas. (Melbourne).

On the way from Chapel st to Noble Park Maccas, the police, sheriff, EPA and Vicroads, had a huge operation set up on Princes Highway, just near the Caulfield Horse racing track. They were checking every car that was driving past. Doing breathalyser, Drugtests, Roadworthy's, licence checks, fine collections, pollution control and such. You name it they were checking for it. Now at this site there must of been 50 plus personnel, and 20 plus government vehicles, including police cars. This was about midnight and they looked like they were packing up, funny thing is, on the side of the road they only had about 8 or so cars that had been parked, from drink drivers or what not. 1 car had a sheriff clamp. Now we got through the road block with no problem, but as we were traveling up the highway, I seen about 10 marked and unmarked cop cars pulled up on the side of the road with lights on and someone pulled over in front of them. All the cars I seen pulled over would have been seen to be a hoon's car. But it is good to see the cops actually out there in force patrolling.

Now looking how big this operation was, I would assume this would of cost the government a fair bit to run. Now my problem is not with the actual operation but with what the government could of done instead. Probably about 20 min drive down the Highway is Sandown raceway which is always closed unless a huge event is on like the V8 super cars. Maybe if they opened up Sandown and charged $5 or $10 dollars to race your car, all the people that race down that part of the highway on Friday night, would goto the track and race where it is legal and safe.I do not see why they can not do this.

The track does not have to be built, it has been there for way over 20 years now, so would not cost the government a cent to build. Yet it is closed and people race on the Highway past it.

[Streets]

Sandown isn't owned by the government so they have no say in its use.

[xisled]

Originally Posted by Streets

Sandown isn't owned by the government so they have no say in its use.

I am sure that if the government wanted to fix this problem they would organize something with the owner.

[Jim Goose]

Only driven once on a racetrack and oddly enough it was sandown for the easternats!... what a blast!
the government doesnt need to get involed with the owners of Sandown, its the "car enthusists" and car clubs who need to get it together.
Dont even expect a govenment to do it for you.
The other avenue would be to approach the Police as well and get their input maybe?
They (the Police) used to run Operation drag in QLD in the early 1990s where the Police force actually ran 2 VK? commodores at the drag strips around the state.

If the Police are willing to run community programs in order to rehabilitate criminals, im sure they would give it a go with the car community?

[DBourne]

You're forgetting that to open the track they need medics, fireys etc.. Not worth it for them if you're only paying $5-$10

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

but you want someone convicted on a what if?

Yes, by choosing to hoon, they are choosing to deliberately endanger the public, that is the crime here, read DELIBERATELY, many of us find that just as affronting. Of course if they do injure someone, throw away the key!

Current penalties, yeh, just a slap on the wrist, howabout a 5 year ban from driving first offence and a 5 year stint in jail if you violate the suspension, or are these hoons more mindless than I think.

[SEZ213]

If you can get firey's, ambo's and SES involved, there is the possibility their time will be voluntary, they do it down south - as the car culture is inherent in the town. Seems to work well, or so I'm told. If Lion's and Rotary clubs get involved, fundraising, it's not a cheap set up, but it's beneficial - and seems to be keeping the 'hoons' off the roads...

[xisled]

Originally Posted by SgtBourne

You're forgetting that to open the track they need medics, fireys etc.. Not worth it for them if you're only paying $5-$10

If it was cheap more people would attend more people would enter. Even if the cost was $20 per car and $5 dollars to enter venue. I would think more people would attend which means more money to be gained, more hoon's off the road and onto legal tracks.

[xisled]

This is the current pricing for Caldar Park Legal street drags.


Prices

Street Car/Bike:

$80 inc GST

Inc 1 Driver, 1 Crew Entry

Comp Car/Bike:

$130 inc GST

Inc 1 Driver, 3 Crew Entry

Adults:

$25.00

Eftpos Available

Kids:

$ Free

Under 18

Family:

$40.00

2 Adults & 1 Child (Minimum)

Parking:

$ Free

General Admission

Security Parking: $10.00
Security Patrolled

Helmet Hire: $25.00 Licence to be left at Reception
Garages:

$10.00

Competitors Only (First Come Basis)

http://www.calderpark.com.au/events/...day-drags.aspx

[Fireblade]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Yes, by choosing to hoon, they are choosing to deliberately endanger the public, that is the crime here, read DELIBERATELY, many of us find that just as affronting. Of course if they do injure someone, throw away the key!

Current penalties, yeh, just a slap on the wrist, howabout a 5 year ban from driving first offence and a 5 year stint in jail if you violate the suspension, or are these hoons more mindless than I think.

And on that logic then I want all idiots who decide to cut people off deliberately or accidental, talking on their mobile phone, travelling over the speed limit (5kmh or over) to have the same consequences because they are essentially doing the same thing. And to prove a point you admitted to doing 135kmh in a what speed zone, this puts you in the same basket Sudzy I want you banned from driving for 5 years because that was stupid and reckless, actually forget about a ban, I want you locked up for deliberately endangering mine and others lives. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander ay Sudzy ya Hypocrite.

[SEZ213]

I am curious though, and I really would like someone to explain to me why they're closing down the legal venues at the Gold Coast, and anywhere else for that matter?

Not the dodgy reasons, but the real reason - if anyone knows, I'm all ears...

There can be the usual harp on about how it's irresponsible for people to hoon...but let's face it, this is a forum compiled mostly of car enthusiasts...and unfortunately, we all get tarred with the same brush, the usual rants of 'be responsible' are old I for one am tired of hearing the same beat up responses all the time.

I'd like real reasons, and real solutions...

[Fireblade]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I am curious though, and I really would like someone to explain to me why they're closing down the legal venues at the Gold Coast, and anywhere else for that matter?

Not the dodgy reasons, but the real reason - if anyone knows, I'm all ears...

Expense to run and maintain most likely, and the golden goose public liability.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

and the golden goose public liability.

That's the killer.....

[SEZ213]

I did a bit of a hunt around - Darlington park was closed because people who moved into the area and built after the track was established got cranky...

Subsequently to be turned into an industrial estate?

And found the following two threads...one from here...

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=19130

and one from Performance Forums

http://www.performanceforums.com/for...php?t=67194348

It is with sad notice that we inform you that the beautiful Darlington Park
Raceway at Ormeau has been permanently closed.

The commercial decision was forced on the land owners by the constant
harrasment of the Gold Coast City Council.

The problem was the amount of money to win and the fact that after the win,
would we ever enjoy the commerical environment expected.

Without this firm future for the track, it is hard to keep the circuit open
with the rise of land values for Darlington Park.

The track was built by Tony Stephens, who passed away 3 months ago. The
pressure of the court case is believed to have played a major role in the
heart attack that took his life.

Tony's family has decided that their family life and financial returns for
land are a major direction.

Top Rider had placed over $80,000 in the fight, and had help from
course/track day people who helped to keep the track going.

We are disappointed in the Council and Government departments.

We require a track for people to use and express themselves safely - speed
for tracks, and roads for transport. Top Rider realizes the inportance of a
circuit like Darlington Park.

Thank-you all for your support, please don't give up, because we haven't.

- Bernie Hatton.

Followed shortly by this...

http://www.caradvice.com.au/2237/qld...r-enthusiasts/

Of course QLD transport argues that residents living around the training centre complain about the excessive noise. Now I ask you Mr Lucas, what scenario would you rather prefer?

Driver training is conducted on public roads by disgruntled enthusiast late at night endangering the public.
Driver training is conducted in a safe environment by responsible enthusiasts wishing to have some fun, safely.
You have to remember that the Mt Cotton Driver training centre has been there long before the residents moved in around the area, and as the name suggests, it has one purpose, driver training.

It would appear even driver training facilities are being hindered because of residents who've cracked the sads...

Yes, these articles are old, but very relevant. The facilities were there...and I don't believe this 'public liability' garbage that keeps getting thrown around...it has lies written all over it.

[WMD351]

Insurance is only going to get worse in the aftermath of the natural disasters we've had this year. The poor insurance mobs need to make their money back somewhere.
Also Sandown = a bunch of people who decided to buy a house next to a race track and then complain about noise. A lot of tracks were built out of the way a long time ago but nowadays the land is more profitable as residential.

edit. ^^what Sezzy said.

Once upon a time it wasn't so hard to set up in the middle of nowhere and turn a profit. Public liability these days (after 9/11 in particular) has made turning a profit from some ventures far more difficult.

[Fireblade]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

The facilities were there...and I don't believe this 'public liability' garbage that keeps getting thrown around...it has lies written all over it.

I understand your point Sez, but public liability is a very real exorbitant cost.

[xisled]

They are getting shut down because people buy land next to the race track for dirt cheap prices. They complain and complain and complain to get the track closed down, once closed down the prices in the land increase.

[Redrum]

I do not think so. Drag strips don't stop street racing

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

I understand your point Sez, but public liability is a very real exorbitant cost.

There only because people refuse to take responsibility, and want someone to pay and blame when they stuff up...IMO it's extortion...

I don't see why legally binding indemnity forms couldn't cover for this type of event.

We are all aware of the inherent risks when going to race tracks, this should be no different.

[Fireblade]

I don't disagree with you Sez, the world is full of people not taking responsibility for their own actions, unfortunately this won't ever change.

[DJR-351]

Indemnity forms for the most part are not worth the paper they are written on....

The company i work for used to allow visitors on board when we got into port, until someone (wearing high heels) slipped on the gangway when leaving, indemnity form tossed in the bin and company out thousands....

Now no more visitors....

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Redrum

I do not think so. Drag strips don't stop street racing

Well brothels stopped street prostitution didn't it?

There are two groups of people here:

a) People who have no regard for the law and will do whatever they like. These are the ones that the car haters focus on and tend to really upset legitimate performance enthusiasts. Of all people you are in a position where the wrongdoings of a very minor few have unfairly tainted you. Makes you a bit angry as well I suspect.

b) People who tend to follow the law unless there is no provision to do so. We all break laws every day. Jaywalking, littering, speeding etc. etc. just to name a few but most don't jaywalk near a zebra or litter near a bin or speed in dangerous places or whatever.
Grouping a jay walker in woop woop with an idiot running around in traffic or someone who drops a used tissue in a gutter with dumping toxic waste or someone doing 5km/h over the limit way out west with someone doing 200km/h in a school zone at 3pm is just plain stupid.

Building facilities will have the same effect as building skate parks. It will reduce the potential for otherwise law abiding people to commit offences. It will never be 100% but anything that involves humans will always somewhat "fluid".

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by flappist

building skate parks.

We have a new skate park here on the island, but we still have the same problem of avoiding running them over on the road....

Someone forgot to tell the skaters to carry their boards to the park......

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well brothels stopped street prostitution didn't it?

There are two groups of people here:

a) People who have no regard for the law and will do whatever they like. These are the ones that the car haters focus on and tend to really upset legitimate performance enthusiasts. Of all people you are in a position where the wrongdoings of a very minor few have unfairly tainted you. Makes you a bit angry as well I suspect.

b) People who tend to follow the law unless there is no provision to do so. We all break laws every day. Jaywalking, littering, speeding etc. etc. just to name a few but most don't jaywalk near a zebra or litter near a bin or speed in dangerous places or whatever.
Grouping a jay walker in woop woop with an idiot running around in traffic or someone who drops a used tissue in a gutter with dumping toxic waste or someone doing 5km/h over the limit way out west with someone doing 200km/h in a school zone at 3pm is just plain stupid.

Building facilities will have the same effect as building skate parks. It will reduce the potential for otherwise law abiding people to commit offences. It will never be 100% but anything that involves humans will always somewhat "fluid".

I simply answered no to the very simple question, "will it stop hoons". Of course it may reduce some incidents.

In regard to skate parks, there are pro and con arguments for them also, but along the lines used here, they also do not stop skate boarders from skate boarding in and around the city and places they are not supposed too.

As some are mentioned, as per usual, money is involved. I don't think the hoons we are talking about here are really wanting to spend the funds to utilize the facilities so who should shoulder the bill. As a tax paper I do not want to.

Prostitution is still rife, a quick drive through St Kilda's darker parts should confirm that.

[Fireblade]

Your exactly right Redrum, the hoons we are talking about totally disregard the law and wouldn't pay to use the facilities, but then the real enthusiast lose out to don't they, and we also pay taxes, and a lot of the time a fair chunk I presume.

You can't stamp out 100% of anything that is wrong in the world, but reducing it is just as good.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well brothels stopped street prostitution didn't it?

It did?

Take a hike down to Eastern Creek, go for a drag then pick up a street walker on the way home.

[302 XC]

" Well brothels stopped street prostitution didnt it ??? "
NO, it didnt !!!!!
It is a safer , yep cleaner environment
Bitta difference but the comparison of getting of the streets to a cleaner , safer environment is valid
So we have tracks around the country
Now instead of some pen pusher, and all the goddy goodies out there parading how it wont work
So ya charge a nominal fee to compete,and watch
Then increase the speeding fines, illegal mod fines,or any other fine, tip this extra revenue towards the running
Im sure itll make money
Or better still, get some person with some smarts about them,
( not text book smarts )
And get some sponsors on board as well
Businesses who help towards the cause, youll find many would jump on board
I have heard recently that some racing events in the states dont charge admission, all costs are paid by sponsor ship

Public liability,dont most events ,waver this
"Entering these premises is your responsibility"
Should an event owner be responsible if someones engine blow,or that tyre damages things ???

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Yes, by choosing to hoon, they are choosing to deliberately endanger the public, that is the crime here, read DELIBERATELY, many of us find that just as affronting. Of course if they do injure someone, throw away the key!

Current penalties, yeh, just a slap on the wrist, howabout a 5 year ban from driving first offence and a 5 year stint in jail if you violate the suspension, or are these hoons more mindless than I think.

So if i take the Falcon for a flog in the national park in the dead of night, what public am i going endanger?

What if i'm excessivly speeding and misjudge a corner and drive straight off the road through the bushes and off the cliff?

Im not a criminal if i drive myself off a cliff am i.

Oh wait this is Australia, id be fined for littering