Falcon I6 to be dropped in favour of a V6 - Page 5

BENT_8 · 11-07-2007, 04:32 PM

Dude i think your missin the point, it's like comparing a 2stroke bike with a 4stroke bike.
The 2stroke is more responsive to throttle input and revs faster and with greater ease the same as the Toyota engine whereas the I6 will pull harder and stronger but takes the best part of a week to get there.
Thats why these I6 engines are so widely regarded as good towing vehicles because they deliver great power when you want to overtake a vehicle on the highway etc.
When they are already spinning at 2000rpm they are in the Zone but from idle they are slugs.
The Toyota motor is all noise when at full stretch but is already moving by then much like the Holden V6.

EgoFG · 11-07-2007, 04:34 PM

It would be a Sad Day .... There have been sad days before:
Jag I6 to V6 (under Ford control)
Merc I6 to V6

I think the place to settle the argument is by comparing Equivalent Merc to BMW.

That having been said, the lazy low end torque is one thing that helps wonderfully in my staying with a 6 (Have ovned 2 v8)

DK30RB · 11-07-2007, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EgoFG

Let us call this "Toyota Mentality" ... Oh wait, I did just on-sell a perfectly good 11 year old 250,000 EFII.
And for $500 More than the advertised proce of at least 1 Similar Camry

http://search.carsguide.news.com.au/...&vehicleType=3

Thats fair. Your I6 Falcon is only worth $500 more than a 2.2 litre 4 cylinder camry of the same age an KM.

Lets not call it 'Toyota Mentallity"

Since 1994 i have owned (purchased myself, not given as company cars)

94 EF Futura (1 year old)
95 Pulsar N15 (New)
96 EF II Future (1 year old)
99 AUI (new)
2000 AUII (new) + 2002 Impreza RS (new)
2003 BA XR6(New)
2005 Liberty 3.0R-B (new) - 2006 Outback 2.5i (New)
2007 Toyota Aurion ZR6 (new) (still have the 2006 outback).

I think i've had my fair shair of different brands to say that selling a car well before 300,000km is definately NOT a toyota mentallity....

Perana · 11-07-2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

is there a better 6 cylinder in the Ford camp anywhere?

Yep... this one... small bump in capacity and it'd be perfect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_SI6_engine

Quote:

Originally Posted by EgoFG

Jag I6 to V6 (under Ford control)

and back to I6 again.. see the link above..

mcflux · 11-07-2007, 04:45 PM

XR8Master, as BENT_8 stated, the gearing in the Aurion (and weight) would make up for what it lacks in torque.

I'm not a fan at all of large FWD sedans, but I've driven a 380 and it had a LOT more go in it than a BA XT I'd also driven, as well as a VZ Exec. This was down all down to the excellent combination of the engine's power/torque to its gearing.

XD 351 Ute · 11-07-2007, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Am i the only one who recognises a pattern here?

:

Ah, yep. And with this move in engine design, the pattern will surely continue.
The Falcon has always been a big, solid, and simple car that has, with the changes you've listed in your post, been turned into a Ford Commodore in my opinion.

The true Falcon is dead, and with a V6 will be even deader.

The much hyped Aurion has a fatter ar$e (in looks) than a BA and styling worse than an AU series 1.

Most modern V6's that I've seen are an absolute mongrel to work on, and have the character of a starfire 4.

I suppose though, that with a V6, the Falcon will finally match all the dynamics of the other modern tin cans, er.. cars, instead of being an individual with heart.

:

I feel better now!

Ed

BENT_8 · 11-07-2007, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DK30RB

Thats fair. Your I6 Falcon is only worth $500 more than a 2.2 litre 4 cylinder camry of the same age an KM.

Lets not call it 'Toyota Mentallity"

Since 1994 i have owned (purchased myself, not given as company cars)

94 EF Futura (1 year old)
95 Pulsar N15 (New)
96 EF II Future (1 year old)
99 AUI (new)
2000 AUII (new) + 2002 Impreza RS (new)
2003 BA XR6(New)
2005 Liberty 3.0R-B (new) - 2006 Outback 2.5i (New)
2007 Toyota Aurion ZR6 (new) (still have the 2006 outback).

I think i've had my fair shair of different brands to say that selling a car well before 300,000km is definately NOT a toyota mentallity....

No definately not Toyota mentality.
Since 97 i have owned and departed with
EA Fairmont
EA s pak
EF fairmont
EF gli
EL futura
EL fairmont
TOYOTA touring series 3.0v6
VS V6
VP V6
VR statesman V8
And a I6 BA XT
plus numerous others
and the smoothest of the lot was the Toyota hands down

BENT_8 · 11-07-2007, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EgoFG

And then the EF shap competes cosmetically with all except last years Commo.

Thats an individual point of view, like an AU S1 owner trying to convince someone that it's not really that awful to look at.

Perana · 11-07-2007, 04:54 PM

Anybody who thinks the I6 is world class needs a reality check, it's hardly a world class engine.. granted it is better than it was and is a lot better than what Holden offer...

banarcus · 11-07-2007, 04:55 PM

I dont think the majority of the general public buy a car purely on its cylinder configuration. Holden has been outselling Ford with its V6 powered Commodore for a long time now regardless of whether its dynamically superior or not. So long as it meets the needs of the buying public in this day and age, then it will sell. Enthusiasts are always harder to please.

EgoFG · 11-07-2007, 04:57 PM

You know, I aint poor - but I would love to have enough income to justify your expenditure.

Lets call it the 'mentality that lead you to a Toyota'

Quote:

Originally Posted by DK30RB

Thats fair. Your I6 Falcon is only worth $500 more than a 2.2 litre 4 cylinder camry of the same age an KM.

Lets not call it 'Toyota Mentallity"

Since 1994 i have owned (purchased myself, not given as company cars)

94 EF Futura (1 year old)
95 Pulsar N15 (New)
96 EF II Future (1 year old)
99 AUI (new)
2000 AUII (new) + 2002 Impreza RS (new)
2003 BA XR6(New)
2005 Liberty 3.0R-B (new) - 2006 Outback 2.5i (New)
2007 Toyota Aurion ZR6 (new) (still have the 2006 outback).

I think i've had my fair shair of different brands to say that selling a car well before 300,000km is definately NOT a toyota mentallity....

Hunter · 11-07-2007, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Oh dont get me started on that tripe again!

It does make financial sense I guess, but what does that mean for the geelong plants? Thats a massive political move!!! They would want to keep that in mind.

I dont care how good a V6 will be, why cant Ford globally adopt our I6? Its proven to be a great engine (is there a better 6 cylinder in the Ford camp anywhere?), and its made on comparatively a shoe string budget. Imagine what could happen with a bit more cash.

I dont see why they cant say change it to 3.5L, use some better materials etc if used globally. That way the plant stays, so do local jobs and if they need more engines build a plant in China.

Or perhaps this is an evil ploy to get more people to buy V8's, because I reckon every Ford nut will drop a V6 like a hot pie.

Agreed most people dont give a hoot, but the torque is a good selling point. IE- towing etc...with the baby boomers caravaning for example.

I can tell you why a V6 would be, at least to the beancounters, a better 'global engine' - FWD cars. You ever seen a FWD car with a transversely mounted 4 litre straight 6? I haven't but bugger me it'd probably be about as wide as a Humvee. The v6 is good for FWD econoshitboxes and seeing as the vast majority of 'cars' these days (go-kart is more accurate) are FWD, a big, straight 6 motor really is the black sheep of the family. Beancounters like things to be homogeneous and reusable thus the I6's fate is probably already decided.

We live not in a world of intelligence and good design but rather, we live in a world of money and cost cutting.

BENT_8 · 11-07-2007, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XD 351 Ute

:

Ah, yep. And with this move in engine design, the pattern will surely continue.
The Falcon has always been a big, solid, and simple car that has, with the changes you've listed in your post, been turned into a Ford Commodore in my opinion.

The true Falcon is dead, and with a V6 will be even deader.

The much hyped Aurion has a fatter ar$e (in looks) than a BA and styling worse than an AU series 1.

Most modern V6's that I've seen are an absolute mongrel to work on, and have the character of a starfire 4.

I suppose though, that with a V6, the Falcon will finally match all the dynamics of the other modern tin cans, er.. cars, instead of being an individual with heart.

:

I feel better now!

Ed

Right on the money mate, unfortunately Ford Australia cant afford to let their flag ship stay a distant reminder of the glory days.
They are in the business of selling cars and if the general public want a cheaper more fuel efficient Ford Falcon Commodore then thats what they will get.
I dont think it will worry them if a few people on a Ford Forum will disapprove.
There is a whole market of other buyers to fill their orders as soon as they get the fuel consumption down and for the rest of you.......Buy an XD

DK30RB · 11-07-2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EgoFG

You know, I aint poor - but I would love to have enough income to justify your expenditure.

Lets call it the 'mentality that lead you to a Toyota'

It certainly wasn't mentallity. It was Fords complete lack of customer service and unreliability that led to me going over to Subaru.

This year toyota met my needs in a car. If Subaru had a large Aurion/Falcon sized car right now, i would be driving that.

The Liberty was a shade too small for my liking, hence the toyota.

BENT_8 · 11-07-2007, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

I can tell you why a V6 would be, at least to the beancounters, a better 'global engine' - FWD cars. You ever seen a FWD car with a transversely mounted 4 litre straight 6? I haven't but bugger me it'd probably be about as wide as a Humvee. The v6 is good for FWD econoshitboxes and seeing as the vast majority of 'cars' these days (go-kart is more accurate) are FWD, a big, straight 6 motor really is the black sheep of the family. Beancounters like things to be homogeneous and reusable thus the I6's fate is probably already decided.

We live not in a world of intelligence and good design but rather, we live in a world of money and cost cutting.

Ahh the new Holden Epica has a transversely mounted 2.0 or 2.5l FWD I6 configuration, depending on the equipment level.

Perana · 11-07-2007, 05:05 PM

Volvo have I6's transversally mounted too..

Austin Kimberley had a transverse I6 in 1970.

BUT the I6 and the car would have to be designed to fit.. the Falcon I6 would have absolutly NO hope of fitting.

BENT_8 · 11-07-2007, 05:10 PM

What about a 'Boxer design' flat six?

Would that be far enough removed from a V6 Commy for the enthusiast in us.

But i guess they are a crap designed, gutless piece of crap too ey!

Oh and perhaps someone could correct me if im wrong but didn't Ford design the V6 in the first place?
I'm sure i read that some where and then they sold the design rights

Hunter · 11-07-2007, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Ahh the new Holden Epica has a transversely mounted 2.0 or 2.5l FWD I6 configuration, depending on the equipment level.

Yes but a Falcon 4.0 litre motor? I know how long they are and I know far back Ford has mounted them to reduce overhang... if one of those where mounted east-west it would make the car very very wide.

Quote:

Volvo have I6's transversally mounted too..

Which one? The Austin had a 2.2 L I6... hardly comparable to a 4.0 L falcon motor.

RPO83 · 11-07-2007, 05:15 PM

There do seem to be quite a few pros for introducing a new global engine from improved packaging, improved fuel consumption, better export potentials, greater platform sharing capabilities, lower R&D from crash test modelling to emissions testing and compliance to the availability of fuel cell technology to name just a few.

Perana · 11-07-2007, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

Yes but a Falcon 4.0 litre motor? I know how long they are and I know far back Ford has mounted them to reduce overhang... if one of those where mounted east-west it would make the car very very wide.

Which one? The Austin had a 2.2 L I6... hardly comparable to a 4.0 L falcon motor.

Here's the latest Transverse I6 engine for Volvo/Ford etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_SI6_engine

3.5+L version would be perfect for Falcon. Bit pricey i would say though.

BENT_8 · 11-07-2007, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

Yes but a Falcon 4.0 litre motor? I know how long they are and I know far back Ford has mounted them to reduce overhang... if one of those where mounted east-west it would make the car very very wide.

Which one? The Austin had a 2.2 L I6... hardly comparable to a 4.0 L falcon motor.

It's possible if they used coke can sized pistons with a 2' stroke

EgoFG · 11-07-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DK30RB

It certainly wasn't mentallity. It was Fords complete lack of customer service and unreliability that led to me going over to Subaru.

Sorry, the word Mentality is not an insult - it means 'way of thinking'

The second bit of your comment captures one uncertainty that slowed me in my latest purchase.

Full Spectrum · 11-07-2007, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

This is not holden or Toyota. Inline 6 has always been ford, regardless of whether it has a nice note or not, its not ford. If you want a nice note, buy a V8.

It still means the same, Life goes on no matter what happens..
The real only reason it's a large point!, Is because there isnt a great V8 in the line-up, So they needed to make a great 6 which was the turbo.
I know plenty of people that scream at the time something changes..
Example.
I'll never buy another Ford after AU.. Bought a BFII..
I'll never buy another Holden V8 after the 5lt died... Bought a VYII SS..
WE can't afford to be to sentimental now a days with the small cars selling up a storm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooo not a V6 never, I would never buy a V6 the i6 is the way to go and keep going. Good torque and power and they don't get all rattly when there reved.

You haven't herd my brothers BA

.

EgoFG · 11-07-2007, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EgoFG

I think the place to settle the argument is by comparing Equivalent Merc to BMW.

Given the prices of these cars differ by about 10%, and that the two makers are strong traditional competitors (German Ford/Holden - If you like) - this comparison should be appropriate,, and less emotional than an Aus or Jap comparison.

Compare Engines only
BMW 5 Series E60 2007
530i Steptronicto
Mercedes-Benz E-Class W211 2006
E 280 Elegance 7G Tronic

But because of the inequity in performance I opted to upsize to a
Mercedes-Benz E-Class W211 2006
E 350 Avantgarde 7G Tronic

. BMW 3l i6 Merc 3l v6 Merc 3.5l v6

KW 200 @ 6650 170 @ 6000 200 @ 6000
Nm 315 @ 2750 300 @ 2500 350 @ 2400
cc 29962 996 3498
bore 85 88 92.9
stroke 88 82.1 86

$ 113,500 99,500 131,000

Note the Merc typical undersquare V6 - you would think "High revving, no good at the bottom end" ... has its power com in a little lower in the rev range than the BMW

I would think that this bears out that "You can do more for less capacity in a straight 6"
But it does not seem to support my long held "Straight 6 is better down low"

Greg

XD 351 Ute · 11-07-2007, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Right on the money mate, unfortunately Ford Australia cant afford to let their flag ship stay a distant reminder of the glory days.
They are in the business of selling cars and if the general public want a cheaper more fuel efficient Ford Falcon Commodore then thats what they will get.
I dont think it will worry them if a few people on a Ford Forum will disapprove.
There is a whole market of other buyers to fill their orders as soon as they get the fuel consumption down and for the rest of you.......Buy an XD

Nice comeback.
In the end, I don't really care what they do, as long as they remain competitive, and that we still get the choice of driving a new Ford if we want.

I still think there's room for heart and soul in there somewhere though!

Ed

BAFalconXT · 11-07-2007, 06:23 PM

This change will not happen untill, "maybe" the model to replace the Orion. This has only come to light as Ford has started to design the replacement for the Orion.

This arguement can wait another 6 years...

:

Green X · 11-07-2007, 06:25 PM

yeah that would be chit.

If it's all about emissions, somebody want to tell me how a V6 is can meet EuroIV easer than a I6??? Didn't Holden have to drop it's 195KW Alloy Tec soon after it's release it as failed to meet the new emissions standards that cam in??

ether way if they drop the I6, the price of all Ford I6 Turbo models will only head North, If we still have fuel to run em that is LOL

Full Spectrum · 11-07-2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green X

yeah that would be chit.

If it's all about emissions, somebody want to tell me how a V6 is can meet EuroIV easer than a I6??? Didn't Holden have to drop it's 195KW Alloy Tec soon after it's release it as failed to meet the new emissions standards that cam in??

ether way if they drop the I6, the price of all Ford I6 Turbo models will only head North, If we still have fuel to run em that is LOL

Could be the next VL turbo

.. 19 years on and there still rebuilding them and still smashing them up:P.

The 195 is still going?

b0son · 11-07-2007, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR8Master

I would like to see each engine rack up 300 000km and see who holds superiority then

Why? If Ford offered a Falcon with 300,000km on it from the factory, would you be prepared to buy it?

mcnamg · 11-07-2007, 06:36 PM

Quote:

This change will not happen untill, "maybe" the model to replace the Orion. This has only come to light as Ford has started to design the replacement for the Orion.

It will happen in 2010 as stated in the article if you read it.

If Ford releases the Orion before July 1 2008 they have until July 2010 to replace or modify the Barra engine to meet Euro IV rules and if it was released after July 1 2008 they would need to replace or modify the engine immediately.

They have given manufactuers who are halfway through a model cycle a 2 year window and Ford has taken advantage of that. So it will allow for to do an Orion and Orion MKII then a midlife redesign to suit the V6 and maybe the new V8's due around the same time. This model would then be out 2 years and in 2012 this is the year that everyone is hoping for platform sharing to begin