Unions will be the death of Australian car manufacturing

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Sep 97 EL XR8

The unions have negotiated great hourly rates. The only problem is no one thinks about the long term, only now.

fixed it for you

[Crazy Dazz]

Where do people get OFF with their “Holden should guarantee jobs until 2022” arguments?
That is one of my pet peeves against unions; the people they represent are NOT the only “workers” in Australia. Say you’re a mechanic, whether you work on the assembly line for Holden, or whether you struggle to run your own small business, you’re still a “worker.” Difference is for your local mechanic he has MORE at risk, and yet nobody is guaranteeing his hours, guaranteeing his rate of pay, or even guaranteeing him a job.
And what about the secretary, or the IT guy, or the draughtsman, or the accountant doing your tax return?
I was working for a mining company where more than a third of our package was comprised of incentives, bonuses and share schemes, and where most of our “workforce” actually worked for contractors. When the GFC hit and the Zinc price tanked, we shed 2/3’s of our workforce, and those of us left lost all the extras, but we were HAPPY to still have jobs when we had seen our mates lose theirs and saw many other mines close completely.
The only real job security is ensuring that the establishment employing you stays in business.

I once had to negotiate an EBA with a union. It kinda ****ed me off because the majority of people employed under this EBA were professionals just like myself, mostly getting payed more than me, and yet whilst I was eligible to join the union I had to stay out to avoid a conflict of interest because there had to be somebody to negotiate with.
When they put up their draft, at least 2/3’s of it was policy not directly related to the employment conditions (eg environmental impact, recycling, etc.)
This just illustrates my point: Unions are too concerned with left-wing ideology which has nothing to do with their members. Think about it logically; unions should be pro-industry, pro-mining, pro-forestry, anti-carbon-tax, and in favour of anything that protects the jobs of Australian workers. Instead they are too busy laying down and licking the boots of their Labor party masters.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Given that those on this forum are not prepared to divulge the FULL remuneration package, the FULL redundancy package, nor the FULL retirement package we are only guessing.

No need to guess Kiwi, all u gotta do is ask. As you will see, your estimates are way off...

Holden's prior EBA with clause on Family II Closure (Attachment 7, page 182)
http://www.fwc.gov.au/awards/tracee/...AG838750-2.pdf

You can bet the new one will be better if total closure occurs.

[GREGL]

Nice one you have just given everyone a insight to the inner sanctum of a union dominated workplace. Mate, I'm not gunna hold back here, YOU and your like minded peers are a big part of the reason why. ******** dirty work allowance, high humidity allowance etc. Are you guys for real, expect sympathy or something. If you work 3 ks underground ok , but in a factory on terra firma geeze.
This topic has always been a bit here or there but mate you have just confirmed to me why a LOT of people ARE anti union. No wonder this countries going backwards

[fte50]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Nice one you have just given everyone a insight to the inner sanctum of a union dominated workplace. Mate, I'm not gunna hold back here, YOU and your like minded peers are a big part of the reason why. ******** dirty work allowance, high humidity allowance etc. Are you guys for real, expect sympathy or something. If you work 3 ks underground ok , but in a factory on terra firma geeze.
This topic has always been a bit here or there but mate you have just confirmed to me why a LOT of people ARE anti union. No wonder this countries going backwards

Wow ur a genius reading the whole EBA in 2 minutes, (it took us weeks) but learn to understand what YOU read and accept this is only 'part of the picture without experiencing the working environment'.
Yep, you don't have to hold back mate but ur outta ur depths - the allowances you speak of refer to the Foundry operations - was the largest foundry in the southern hemisphere.
Ambient temps of 45 deg during winter, and dirt that makes any coal mine look a hospital, oh and don't forget your generally switching 11,000volts a few times a day. Yeah that's right mate - go have your unjustified rant elsewhere HERO.

[gtfpv]

bit harsh . i deleted my comment .

[MAD]

Why not just have a set pay rate for those that work in the area rather than 'allowances'?

Just another example of the 'compensation' people seem to think they are owed these days I guess.


Surely you need to be trained in foundry operations, and aren't just anybody off the factory floor.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by MAD

Why not just have a set pay rate for those that work in the area rather than 'allowances'?

Just another example of the 'compensation' people seem to think they are owed these days I guess.


Surely you need to be trained in foundry operations, and aren't just anybody off the factory floor.

You guessed wrong -
Go back to my previous posts - majority of workforce was trained in all facets of operation providing Holden with a highly flexible versatile workforce.

Allowances work better purely as set rates create issues when transferring labour between areas for short periods.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

bit harsh . i deleted my comment .

Not at all, but in todays world not many like to be told how it is, mind u their pretty good at the telling part.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by fte50

No need to guess Kiwi, all u gotta do is ask. As you will see, your estimates are way off...

Not my figures!

Originally Posted by Kometes

Toyota was looking at around 4 weeks per year of service, capped at 90. I'd imagine Holden would be similar

...and Kometes figures not disputed by you.

[GREGL]

I wonder why you and your mate are the only 2 pushing the barrow then. To me it seems like you are trying to justify your job. That's great but don't drag the rest of us down with you.
On the aggro pretty quick too which is a prerequisite for a union organiser as well so you are well qualified.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by GREGL

I wonder why you and your mate are the only 2 pushing the barrow then. To me it seems like you are trying to justify your job. That's great but don't drag the rest of us down with you.
On the aggro pretty quick too which is a prerequisite for a union organiser as well so you are well qualified.

Nope, not pushing anything as you say, just having an open discussion / sharing views on topic at hand so u got it wrong.
I don't have to justify anything, nor am I an organiser and those that know me will tell ya im actually pretty placid.
You on the other hand don't know me to judge me so leave it at that.

[gtfpv]

GREGL . i dont think anyone would have to drag you down buddy . you'd find your own way there . i'm sure you wouldnt take such a job with conditions or perks as you say . i'm ok with that . no need to pick on others though buddy

[GQ_Smooth]

Fan out of time

[GQ_Smooth]

Looks like we are still in the blame game.

Factories will close, jobs will go overseas, senior management will need to relocate overseas or look for other work. The economy will suffer, house prices will go down, I will be able to afford a house again. There will be more losers than winners. Small business owners will have less customers to purchase there goods & service.

My previous comments about guaranteeing a job was more to do with the factories remaining open rather than people not getting sacked. If you are not performing, you don't deserve a job.

Why would a worker re-negotiate lower pay if their job is going oversea in 1-3 years time regardless of what was negotiated (this is what I fear will happen regardless, as I don't believe all cards are on the table yet).

[Joe5619]

These are the days of our lives!!!!

[neptune blue]

Off the topic a bit but have a look at what happened at the desal plant in Vic
Guys showing up to work over .05 then being sent home on full pay
Stoppages at the drop of a hat
Ridiculous wages I know I vacuum tanker operator earning $2,500.00 per week for just sitting around

Apparently you can count on one hand the amount of full weeks actually worked on the site
And people wonder why company's go off shore

The cost of doing business isn't only about dollars

why isn't shell going to up grade the refinery ??? Who wants to deal with all the pain as well as the cost

When there isn't any manufacturing left perhaps we can unionise milkbars

[b0son]

Originally Posted by FTEMEL

Unions prevent the little guy with poor education from being steam rolled by his boss into employment contracts that are unfair .

Perhaps, but they've often stifled the little guy with initiative who deserved to be compensated better than those around him who were happy just to coast along.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by neptune blue

Off the topic a bit but have a look at what happened at the desal plant in Vic
Guys showing up to work over .05 then being sent home on full pay
Stoppages at the drop of a hat
Ridiculous wages I know I vacuum tanker operator earning $2,500.00 per week for just sitting around

Apparently you can count on one hand the amount of full weeks actually worked on the site
And people wonder why company's go off shore

The cost of doing business isn't only about dollars

why isn't shell going to up grade the refinery ??? Who wants to deal with all the pain as well as the cost

When there isn't any manufacturing left perhaps we can unionise milkbars

The government of the day & the construction company were complicit in these rorts & chose not to do any thing about it.

Remember this, to have EBA's it is agreed by unions and companies to have a working EBA so why just blame the unions when something goes wrong.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by trublu

The government of the day & the construction company were complicit in these rorts & chose not to do any thing about it.

Remember this, to have EBA's it is agreed by unions and companies to have a working EBA so why just blame the unions when something goes wrong.

Exactly what I was going to say. Who's stupider, the unions for making astronomical claims or the idiot government officials for saying yes to them. The union guys probably put those claims up to fill out their claim log, not expecting to get much of it, and they were probably stunned when they did get it.

Just remember it's the governments/employers final say on yes or no.

[Charliewool]

You need staunch unionists!
Staunch, honest, loyal.. Billy Shortens a great example I reckon?
Love to be in the trenches with him at my side eh?

[neptune blue]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Exactly what I was going to say. Who's stupider, the unions for making astronomical claims or the idiot government officials for saying yes to them. The union guys probably put those claims up to fill out their claim log, not expecting to get much of it, and they were probably stunned when they did get it.

Just remember it's the governments/employers final say on yes or no.

My understanding is that the EBA was designed to minimise stoppages, frivolous walkouts etc by trying to keep the work force happy, instead the opposite happened

Remember these contracts have penalties for the builder if the project isnt completed on time and the union would never hold a gun to the developers head to get their way now would they

It just proves even more that large organisation are sick of being told how to run their businesses

It ain't enough to have a generous EBA , more so its better to rape the project for everything you can while you can

Just for the record I've been on both sides of this argument

we need unions to ensure workers are not exployted
But how can you expect any organisation to invest big in Australia when they cannot run their business efficiently, without disruption or interference and forced to keep unproductive , lazy, troublesome employees all because the union won't let you get rid of them

[fte50]

Originally Posted by neptune blue

look at what happened at the desal plant in Vic
Guys showing up to work over .05 then being sent home on full pay
Stoppages at the drop of a hat
Ridiculous wages I know I vacuum tanker operator earning $2,500.00 per week for just sitting around

Yep, that is disgusting and an absolute insult to every person who works for a crust no doubt.
But despite which way people lean, to suggest /think or believe all unionists behave this way is utter rubbish.
Erase the picture in your head of some bloke ****ing it up in the pub on double time, all the unionists I was affiliated with were hard workers - they were my colleagues on the factory floor, and for most on here, just like yourselves earning an honest living.
Also understand that many of the conditions some think are outrages, are infact conditions adopted from other GM plants from Europe US etc providing they applied in our scenario.
Finally, the most rewarding aspect of being a unionist was the gratitude expressed by people who could not help themselves, where when faced with issues or difficulties you could achieve a win win outcome more often than not with sensible humane dialogue.

Its not about bleeding the hand that feeds you as some of you here imply.
There are no winners in this scenario so whats the point - short term gain for long term pain - why bother.

Ask any of the car major's if over the last 15yrs they've been held to ransom as such - I know what the answer would be.
I also know that none of the 3 are/or to be leaving because the wages and conditions are unrealistic.

The GM scenario currently being played is a very calculated business decision prior to its imminent end. Strip labour cost back to $20p/h and they will still be gone make no mistake unless govt starts making the urgent required changes for ALL sectors of manufacturing to survive in a non-level playing field.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Exactly what I was going to say. Who's stupider, the unions for making astronomical claims or the idiot government officials for saying yes to them. The union guys probably put those claims up to fill out their claim log, not expecting to get much of it, and they were probably stunned when they did get it.

Just remember it's the governments/employers final say on yes or no.

My union organiser was saying they fill up an EBA with a lot of stuff they know they wont get, but use it to negotiate, so will cut out the crap in negotiations to get what we really want.

You don't go into negotiate with exactly what you want as you'll have to lose stuff right off the bat, better to start up high and work your way down is what they were saying to me.

Did the person who looked over the EBA for the desal plant actually read it or think about negotiating?

[neptune blue]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

My union organiser was saying they fill up an EBA with a lot of stuff they know they wont get, but use it to negotiate, so will cut out the crap in negotiations to get what we really want.

You don't go into negotiate with exactly what you want as you'll have to lose stuff right off the bat, better to start up high and work your way down is what they were saying to me.

Did the person who looked over the EBA for the desal plant actually read it or think about negotiating?

Well that's simply not true in my case
All the negotiations I've been involved in have been extreamly difficult and the EBA's rarely have frivolous claims and when they do they are really frivolous and will only contain one or throw away items

Like I said I believe the EBA was generous because the project managers needed to ensure the plant was finished on time

But it was simply milked

I was on the tools for the best part of 10 years before moving into an executive position so I've seen both sides

You need unions

But I simply do not believe that some unions can act the way they do and expect long term employment for their members

One of the better unions I've dealt with is the AMWU vehicle builders but again I had one guy that simply didn't deserve a job and they they fought for this no good lazy a -hole until he finally resigned because he didn't like the job I gave him to do

Mind you he was on light duties because he claimed he injured his back at work but ended up taking a job as a diesel mechanic???

That's what I'm saying why does the union stick up for dead beats and fight you all the way

If they are going to stick up for someone let it be for someone that has genuinely been shafted

Any way I've said enough on this topic and I don't think all of us will ever agree

I just hope that the industrialists and the unionists will give our children the opportunity to have a secure future and reasonably standard of living

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by neptune blue

If they are going to stick up for someone let it be for someone that has genuinely been shafted

I guess he was a financial member and they will defend any of their members just to look like they are doing the right thing by the boys on the floor.

It didn't help one of our guys when he got made redundant, there wasn't much the AMWU could do for him. The only difference was that he got a payout on owed back pay as they were stooging him on pay illegally for around 2 years. It amounted to about $6000.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by FTEMEL

Unions prevent the little guy with poor education from being steam rolled by his boss into employment contracts that are unfair .FLIPSIDE they have lost touch with reality and constantly abuse their perceived position of power by demanding unrealistic and unsustainable working conditions .The De-sal plant in Wonthaggi was a joke , trades men getting $200k a year doing SFA , how do i know this ? They came back bragging about it and then expected to be employed by their former bosses who they ditched in a blink just for the sake of Union provided greeeeeed.Yes im a Tradie an Electrician so before you shoot me just think about the financial legacy we now have to wear from the De-sal plant......

Yes, and the problem is that they have entrenched this attitude that Nomatter how stupid, lazy, incompetent, unreliable, or drug-addled you are, you deserve a nice house, a nice car, a nice wife, and a well-paid job to fund it all. YOU DON’T.
Communism & Socialism has been tried, and it simply does not work.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Yes, and the problem is that they have entrenched this attitude that Nomatter how stupid, lazy, incompetent, unreliable, or drug-addled you are, you deserve a nice house, a nice car, a nice wife, and a well-paid job to fund it all. YOU DON’T.
Communism & Socialism has been tried, and it simply does not work.

Mate, democracy isn't exactly perfect either if you haven't noticed.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Communism & Socialism has been tried, and it simply does not work.

Here are 10 socialist countries that are doing quite well in the grand scheme of things in one way or another

• China
• Denmark
• Finland
• Netherlands
• Canada
• Sweden
• Norway
• Ireland
• New Zealand
• Belgium

In fact some of them are economic powerhouses while others are just great places to live , highly educated well funded and well paid. Arguably the people are better off than they would be in the Capitalist powerhouses of the UK and USA.



Socialism should not be considered communism, nor should it be feared as it isn't the absence of democracy but the addition of social ethics and capital


JP

[Charliewool]

Nothing much has changed really..
I worked for a large US company in Maribyrnong in the late 70s. They were the largest manufacturers of hydraulic equipment in the world then and employed 400 odd making hydraulic pumps, valves, motors etc. We were the Australian headquarters and pretty well looked after like was the norm for large yank companies back then. Great pay, excellent conditions, and ultra-modern premises.
I was also the Union rep for the metal workers union for our section, being young, headstrong and ambitious, it fitted me well.
Anyhow, our company union rep (a semi-skilled pommie production worker) was constantly drumming up trouble with management.. More pay, different brand of work boots, even at one stage dragging us out for a week demanding the main (huge) production shop be airconditioned! And the company did it! Airconditioned the entire complex at god knows what cost?
I lapped it up.. We were invincible with our union might!
Then... One day, the MD summoned the entire company to a meeting up in the canteen.
His news was that, if the union issues continued, the head honchos in the states were going to cease production in Australia and instead of 400 employed there'd be 20 as warehouse receivers for the pumps and valves imported from Asia.
Our beloved shop stewards response.. They're bluffing.. Out on strike we went..
After 2 weeks back we went, with a payrise too!
My father knew the MD and said to one night "son, he's bloody serious about what the yanks said, he ain't bluffing, you guys are on thin ice"
2 weeks later i got a job with another hydraulics company.
Within 6 months, their were 300 put off from my prior job!
The site is now Maribyrnong Bunnings and Harvey Norman.
That self centred, egotistical shop stewards actions saw me not only resign from the AMWU, but put me off unions for life!