Future of Ford and Holden Could be Revealed in Detroit this week

[EgoFG]

So to answer this Q Ford need to ask - Why do people buy Commo over Falc ?
And then address that issue - and that issue First.
After that they can start looking further down the chain to Toyota etc

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

So to answer this Q Ford need to ask - Why do people buy Commo over Falc ?
And then address that issue - and that issue First.
After that they can start looking further down the chain to Toyota etc

Well Commodore has more variants on offer for starters. That Sportwagon or whatever it is called is adding up to 1000 units to the Commodore bottom line every month, which keeps numbers up there at decent levels. The Falcon does not have this, and we won't see until the new Territory is released as to how well it will sell in the real world. A fuel efficient alternative to the standard V6 as well as a V8 option which the Falcon does not have at the moment give more choice to a buyer.

Another thing is, Holden have been advertising the Commodore flat out for the past year. Right throughout the holidays, even now, they have been hammering the Commodore ads - I'm trying to remember when I saw a Falcon ad on telly, not including the latest Ford effort "comparisons welcome" which seems to be a catch all and not promoting any product in particular.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

So to answer this Q Ford need to ask - Why do people buy Commo over Falc ?
And then address that issue - and that issue First.
After that they can start looking further down the chain to Toyota etc

In my case, purely for the wagon. It was my first non-Ford purchase in a couple of decades. Although still feel I can be called a Ford owner, as I still have an AUII and a new Fiesta.

Secondly, for me the FG looks old. It simply doesnt look like a big enough change over BFII, certainly not what we would expect after XF to EA, EL to AU etc...

The Falcon has a pretty face, but I like the Commodore slightly more as it has a great body, although you do want to put a bag over her head.

And as much as people bag the Commodore, its the best car I have ever owned. Im averaging high 8s fuel economy (im mostly country driving) in a Series II SV6 Sportwagon, it drives beautifully, handles great, tows the horse better than any car I have ever owned, it feels modern and has a lot of great features (rear camera, touch screen, music hard drive, rear sensors, LSD and other things). Its a really solid car, feels it will last 50 years.

Having said all that, I would be in a XR6 FG wagon in a sec. I think the FG shape would work better as a wagon, and the engine, trans, is simply world class.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

So to answer this Q Ford need to ask - Why do people buy Commo over Falc ?
And then address that issue - and that issue First.
After that they can start looking further down the chain to Toyota etc

Why do people buy Commo over Falc? various reasons from previous experiences with Ford, lack of product offered by Ford, not wanting a large sedan (look at the sales figures of other models in other brands) or simply liking the Commodore more.

Easier said than done to address that though. There are minor issues with the Falcon that can be rectified i.e. tyres, interior quality and general packaging (gadgets).
I do like the look of the FG over the VE, it does look like a BF2 in some ways but that isn't a bad thing, design doesn't have to be completely revolutionary with every model. Look at Porsche, Audi, BMW, etc nothing revolutionary with their design over models but they do look good and fresh, the FG is this.

To improve sales of Ford cars, Ford need to move away from being a Falcon company. Become a ONE FORD, they have a range of great cars in the Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo, they need to sell them to build the reputation of Ford up. They will never catch Toyota if they keep marketing themselves as a Falcon company.

[jpd80]

Holden made the switch from "tool of trade" versions to lifestyle versions of Commodore.
While Ford struggled to justify the Station wagon's retention but spent money on the Ute,
primarily as a workhorse. As better work vehicles come to market, the Station wagon
was discontinued and now Ute is becoming imperiled by diesel pick ups.

By contrast, Holden produced the Sportwagon and Ute for their lifestyle market and buyers,
these products have a high percentage of V8 engined copies making them both popular and profitable.

So basically, Ford's strategy of providing "tool of trade" variants is about 20 years out of date.

[mrbaxr6t]

why are there so many news articles of late about falcon being FWD based on taurus? is this media hype or does it have some traction?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Holden made the switch from "tool of trade" versions to lifestyle versions of Commodore.
While Ford struggled to justify the Station wagon's retention but spent money on the Ute,
primarily as a workhorse. As better work vehicles come to market, the Station wagon
was discontinued and now Ute is becoming imperiled by diesel pick ups.

By contrast, Holden produced the Sportwagon and Ute for their lifestyle market and buyers,
these products have a high percentage of V8 engined copies making them both popular and profitable.

So basically, Ford's strategy of providing "tool of trade" variants is about 20 years out of date.

So what you are say is they chose "tools of the trade" rather than "trade of the tools"......

[Watto_Cobra]

Good one Flappist

I'm getting tired of the usual journo suspects trying to destroy Ford Australia. Do they think Holden and it's suppliers will survive without Falcon? That seems very iffy to me.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

So what you are say is they chose "tools of the trade" rather than "trade of the tools"......

Fans asks where Ford's market went, sad truth is they've given most of it away.
Today's Ford buyers only want an XR6/G6 and only if it's loaded and under $36K.
Only a handful of buyers want XR6T, G6E and G6ET......

Anyone wanting a good V8 Ford will go to FPV....

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Watto_Cobra

Good one Flappist

I'm getting tired of the usual journo suspects trying to destroy Ford Australia. Do they think Holden and it's suppliers will survive without Falcon? That seems very iffy to me.

Not really, the supplier base is changing year by year and you'd be surprised how much is sourced form China these days.....

[Watto_Cobra]

True JPD80, but that won't stop some or all local suppliers from shutting up shop.

The great Aussie Commodore, made in China, assembled in Australia.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Watto_Cobra

True JPD80, but that won't stop some or all local suppliers from shutting up shop.

The great Aussie Commodore, made in China, assembled in Australia.

I remember a while back Ford and Holden having to rescue a couple of
suppliers because they ran out of funds... It's highly likely as buying
patterns shift, more suppliers will move offshore to Asia and China.

It wouldn't surprise me if Territory and Falcon sales eventually equalise
and then switch positions.....

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by jpd80

It wouldn't surprise me if Territory and Falcon sales eventually equalise
and then switch positions.....

That is excalty what I think will happen come May/Jun this year... I4, LILPG, XR8 are not due until the end of the year, new territ will be easliy infront very soon I say!!

[Quicksand]

Originally Posted by kpcart

why not? please explain. it seems so many people jump on the band wagon of hating fwd, but there is no reason to.

I will attempt to answer your question, based on my own personal preferences. For me, its not about hating FWD, but preferring RWD. I have the greatest respect for the highly underestimated Focus RS et al. But for me, I prefer the driving dynamics and characteristics of RWD. Having owned many FWD and RWD cars, i have learnt to prefer RWD cars and i personally can definitely tell (feel) the differences between the two.

Some of my preference comes as a result of my enthusiast activities on the track, which i acknowledge makes up a small percentage of the market. But much of my preference is purely centered around my driving style and how the car feels as i drive it (handling and power-down dynamics etc). The average Joe probably can't tell the difference between FWD/RWD when driven at 5/10's, but beyond that IMHO the differences become apparent. FWD as an application has its place, but not in my driveway at this point in time based on what i want to get out of a vehicle.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2011...d-falcon-23167

The history of Holden versus Ford rivalry is set to start a new chapter by the end of the decade as the Commodore and Falcon look likely to go in separate directions.

A senior Ford executive at the Detroit motor show has told Australian journalists overnight it was likely the next generation Falcon, due by 2017, will be a front-drive car, like the Toyota Camry.

What complete lie. He said 'don't hold your breath waiting for RWD Falcon'.

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

Less than 24 hours earlier, the boss of Holden Mike Devereux repeated Holden's intentions for the Commodore to continue as a rear-drive sedan beyond 2020.

It is GMHolden's intentions. Not General Motors intentions. There is a clear difference. It is hardly an announcement either like the article started elsewhere.

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2011...d-falcon-23167

A decision on the next generation Falcon for 2017 is due in the next six months -- the same deadline for the Holden Commodore.

Both GMHolden and Ford have not made decisions.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by phillyc

What complete lie. He said 'don't hold your breath waiting for RWD Falcon'.

It is GMHolden's intentions. Not General Motors intentions. There is a clear difference. It is hardly an announcement either like the article started elsewhere.

Both GMHolden and Ford have not made decisions.

The Holden CEO has ruled out FWD Commodore, an official announcement this far out dosnt mean anything anyway. I remember when Ford "officially announced" they would build Focus here in 2012.. look what happened there.

GM and Holden are in a different position to Ford, Holden have no reason to change to FWD after spending a billion on Zeta. Whilst Ford is very keen to align vehicles globally. Holden sees a market for RWD cars, Ford has stated that consumers dont care if a family car is FWD or RWD, they are probably both right.

Trying to apply Ford's situation to Holden is not correct, both companies have very different strategies and are in very different circumstances.

I am betting decisions have already been made for both Ford and Holden, whether they are signed off or not is another thing. But the head honchos would know what is happening ahead.

[mrmoon]

i think that ford and holden should be making smaller cars,
like most people drive small cars, so make smaller cars
aussie made car like mazda 3, honda, etc

[sxckevo]

Originally Posted by mrmoon

i think that ford and holden should be making smaller cars,
like most people drive small cars, so make smaller cars
aussie made car like mazda 3, honda, etc

Well that just fits in with what we want to happen...not :/ + holden will be, the cruze

Is there some underground hating club that all these so called jurnos attended and all talk BS about how to destroy Aussie icons?? They make me so furious with this constant dribble they release to the average Aussie about what 'they' think will happen and the like So much twisting of words in every article

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by jpd80

But you want to know the darndest thing?
The majority of people with the above view have little or no intention of actually buying a new

I buy new cars (and privately), but as I have said in the past if the Falcon goes FWD my money goes elsewhere. AWD I will look at. But I have been loyal to the Falcon and will continue to with their current set-up.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by mrmoon

i think that ford and holden should be making smaller cars,
like most people drive small cars, so make smaller cars
aussie made car like mazda 3, honda, etc

I know I was born during this time but all this hysteria, is it not just the 80's fuel scare in another form? So the Cruze is just a modern Camira?

We should learn from our past, not recreate it. There is alot of misinformation and bad vibes given off by the falcon and large sedans that just are not true and IMO kill many sales. This is a huge hurdle for FoA and they really need some magic campaigns for FG2.

People still have kids, people still need to tow, some people still have a pulse and like a performance sedan.....

The only thing I can think that will counter this is that families are moving to one small car for the daily commute + a SUV for trips/sport etc.

Still, I think there is a place for the "large" sedan..even though many "medium" cars are pretty big these days.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by vztrt

I buy new cars (and privately), but as I have said in the past if the Falcon goes FWD my money goes elsewhere. AWD I will look at. But I have been loyal to the Falcon and will continue to with their current set-up.

Go Auto have a comprehensive report on what head of Ford Design,
Jay Mays actually said including his review of future Falcon and Territory work:
(The competition for the contract to design the large sedan for Australia, USA and Europe)


Link to GoAuto Article....

When Mr Mays was asked if Ford was prepared to face resistance from
traditionalists who would rather the Falcon remain stand-alone rear-wheel
drive, he said the company had been successful consolidating its Fiesta
and Focus models under its ‘One Ford’ global process, and expects the
same with Falcon. “I understand that (some loyalists will complain), but
I think we are pretty confident that we will find the right answer. It’s the
same things that appeal on a rear wheel drive car in Australia that appeal
for a rear-wheel drive car here in the USA. “We feel very confident that
we are going to deliver a car that everybody around the world is going to
be happy with.”

Within a couple of hours of Mr Mays’ remarks, Dearborn-based Ford
communications executive Mark Schirmer contacted GoAuto to clarify
the Ford design chief’s statements. “While I know J was talking about
possible directions for the Falcon platform, I confirmed with (Ford global
product boss Derrick) Kuzak that the decision is still open, and that we
have not turned down a specific path,” said Mr Schirmer. “We are
considering the alternatives (AWD, FWD, RWD), but nothing has been
finalised. Our decision on Falcon has not been made at this point.

It didn't end there:

Mr Mays said a “cadence meeting” is scheduled in Detroit later
this week to discuss progress on the next Falcon’s design, along with the
next-generation Territory, ahead of a final decision around the middle of
this year. “The global design team comes together at certain times during
the development process, and we review all the progress on all the programs,
not just this one, and then make a decision about what the next steps are
going to be,” he said. “We have about six months to sort out the layout.”
A time line for either of the Aussie-built models was not divulged, but a
release date of around 2015 is likely for the next generation Falcon.

As GoAuto reported exclusively at last September’s Paris motor show, both
models stand a good chance of being indigenous designs. Broadmeadows is
finalising its styling proposals and is competing against other internal design
departments in Dearborn (North America), Dunton (UK) and Cologne
(Germany) to win the contract. Mr Mays said that, while Ford’s current
‘kinetic’ design language will make its way on to the next-generation Falcon,
the styling would adhere to the model’s sports sedan look and feel.
“It will take some (pointers from the coming Focus) but I imagine it will also
take some cues from the Taurus because – and I think you will agree with
this– the Australians and the Americans have a singular affinity for a tougher
looking car. “I have always equated many of the cars that we have sold in
Australia to American muscle cars, and we want to have a little bit of that in
an Australian sedan as well … and if we decide to do (front-wheel drive)
then I think we will get it right.”

And then this from Derrick Kuzak:

Mr May’s comments are consistent with those made to GoAuto by Mr Kuzak
at last year’s Detroit motor show, where he said that the most likely
outcome for the next generation Falcon would be that it springs from the
same platform as Taurus.
“We have the Taurus that we have just introduced in the US market and it
would be consistent to bring those two together at some point,” Mr Kuzak
said at the time. “We just haven’t made the decision yet. “When you think
about what we need to accomplish to get investment efficient then that is a
possibility.”

Discussing the move to front-wheel drive, Mr Kuzak added: “When you think
of some of the disadvantages that they typically would have, think about
design proportions. Well, we’ve got some great front wheel drive, all-wheel
drive cars now in terms of design proportions. “The Taurus is a good example.
In terms of driving dynamics and handling, because of all-wheel drive you can
have great handling cars. We have even made our front-wheel drive cars like
Focus, we have some technology that ... allows front wheel drive cars to
handle even better.

“So they are sort of merging.” Ford Motor Co president and CEO Alan Mulally
also confirmed to GoAuto at last year’s Detroit show that Ford was considering
the future of the Taurus and Falcon together. “That is something that we are
thinking about right know,” he said. “People who make one vehicle for one
country … a different vehicle … those days are gone.”

[Chilliman]

I had been trying to keep my hopes up but I think all this negative news is starting to get to me - a FWD/AWD Falcon means an imported Falcon as I don't see them building it here when there are plenty of factories aorund the world that could build it right now, where as Australia would need to re-tool.

The closure of Ford manufacturing would be disastrous to Ford's brand image in this country, but I guess FoMoCo would be willing to settle for number 10 on the Aussie sales charts as they could probably still turn a profit with even a fifth of their current sales if all the models sold are cheaper imports

[My poor XF]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

The closure of Ford manufacturing would be disastrous to Ford's brand image in this country, but I guess FoMoCo would be willing to settle for number 10 on the Aussie sales charts as they could probably still turn a profit with even a fifth of their current sales if all the models sold are cheaper imports

As much as i would hate to see the end of local manufacturing the only people that would care are the workers and the enthusiasts. Most people simply don't care.

Look at Mitsubishi, have grown much bigger in Australia since they finished local production. The closure of the plant was soon forgotten and the only people holding grudges against the brand would be people who were put out of work.

It sucks but thats the way people are.

[banarcus]

The less that the local mob sell means the greater the chance of an imported Falcon. Can't blame a company for doing that can you? Plus the days of comparing the current Taurus to the one Australia got really doesn't work given the new one looks and goes better alround and loaded with features that consumers want in a family sized car. It's the Falcon that doesn't compare now unless of course you want a RWD inline 6cyl car.

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by banarcus

The less that the local mob sell means the greater the chance of an imported Falcon. Can't blame a company for doing that can you? Plus the days of comparing the current Taurus to the one Australia got really doesn't work given the new one looks and goes better alround and loaded with features that consumers want in a family sized car. It's the Falcon that doesn't compare now unless of course you want a RWD inline 6cyl car.

As long as they don't call it a Falcon - might as well drop the Territory name for the new SUV at the same time. Only pronlem is that using the Taurus and Explorer names are poison in Australia.

Maybe they could use the Fusion name for the Large FWD/AWD car as that name hasn't been used here before (and share the cost of badging with the US model) and call the SUV 'Freestyle' (another American Ford name that never made it here). At least then we'd have fresh names that had none of the baggage of the old models.

[morak001]

Just a thought, could the rising cost of fuel actually help the RWD Falcon/Territory?

I mean that as a towing vehicle are these platforms a more fuel efficient tow vehicle than the larger 4WDs? particularly when the diesel engine comes online, also considering how often these larger 4WDs actually get used as a 4WD or tow car.

[BroadyFord]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

I had been trying to keep my hopes up but I think all this negative news is starting to get to me - a FWD/AWD Falcon means an imported Falcon as I don't see them building it here when there are plenty of factories aorund the world that could build it right now, where as Australia would need to re-tool.

The closure of Ford manufacturing would be disastrous to Ford's brand image in this country, but I guess FoMoCo would be willing to settle for number 10 on the Aussie sales charts as they could probably still turn a profit with even a fifth of their current sales if all the models sold are cheaper imports

So I'm guessing that Ford would be forced to pay back some of the money they got from the Federal government as incentives?

Kim Carr would be absolutely castrated by the Opposition for wasting $6 billion of taxpayers money to prop up Ford when they just shut down their factory anyway putting thousands out of work - not just at Ford but in the supply chain as well.

Surely the government can lobby for them to continue manufacturing here plus Ford has billions of dollars of public money at their disposal to cover much of the necessary retooling costs.

I'm just trying to explain my false sense of hope.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

So I'm guessing that Ford would be forced to pay back some of the money they got from the Federal government as incentives?

Kim Carr would be absolutely castrated by the Opposition for wasting $6 billion of taxpayers money to prop up Ford when they just shut down their factory anyway putting thousands out of work - not just at Ford but in the supply chain as well.

Surely the government can lobby for them to continue manufacturing here plus Ford has billions of dollars of public money at their disposal to cover much of the necessary retooling costs.

I'm just trying to explain my false sense of hope.

There is a lot of BIG IFs, first of all Falcon may remain RWD paired with the Mustang so this whole FWD/AWD debate is worthless.

Secondly if they do go FWD/AWD they will still produce in this country from what they have been saying. Personally I see US as the hub for global LHD production and Australia the hub for global RHD production. The vehicles may not even by identical, the Falcon may be based on the Taurus platform with its own unique body/drivetrains.

[barra240t]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

I for one welcome our new all-wheel-drive overlords

I'm with you, rear wheel drive is in Australian automotive blood, but AWD would be amazing to see in a Falcon for grip and also safety. Yes, they use more fuel I know, but look at Subaru, they stuck with it and are still going.

The last large size vehicle was Magna I think? I have never driven one but apparently it changed it into something special.

[Road_Warrior]

The issue is, for all you AWD fans, that the AWD system that would be used on a future Ford large car would be a front wheel drive biased system from an east-west engine. It WON'T be a RWD biased system like the Territory with the traditional inline engine and trans configuration.

Essentially, it will be an oversized Camry with a bit of drive effort going to the rears.