Workers to vote against pay cut to save Holden

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Is GM about to pick the pockets of its long term employees before finally kicking them to the kerb...

The smart ones have already gone and are making the transition to life after Holden.
edit
They did their sums, looked at their personal circumstances, made a decision, and put their hand up.

[gtfpv]

[QUOTE=Pepscobra;4837073]I agree that once upon a time the unions had their place and helped people better their working conditions against greedy treacherous employers and to fight exploitation.
But is that really what is happening here? C'mon.


Well , LET'S SEE . holden threatening to close down , and get cars manufactured in countries where they dont have jobs that pay enough to live on , any form of housing affordability , safety , medical insurance , unions or permanency .
i dont know . is that whats really happening here ? you tell me . C'mon

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

The smart ones have already gone and are making the transition to life after Holden.
edit
They did their sums, looked at their personal circumstances, made a decision, and put their hand up.

have any of them contributed to the increase in unemployment in this country ? maybe some were smart , maybe some werent. in general terms unions dont support redundancy

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

Well , LET'S SEE . holden threatening to close down , and get cars manufactured in countries where they dont have jobs that pay enough to live on , any form of housing affordability , safety , medical insurance , unions or permanency .
i dont know . is that whats really happening here ? you tell me . C'mon

Mate, I don't know what to say to that, but let me try...
Whether you like it or not, companies are in business to make money. And in business, the name of the game is to minimize expenditure to maximize profits. These companies can build their products where ever they like and often relocate their operations to lower cost centres. It's all simple economics. They are not charities and have no obligation to anyone, bar their share owners and stakeholders.
Australia is part of a bigger global market. We are quickly making ourselves a high cost centre and are not an attractive place for foreign companies to set up business here... We are pushing them away due to our high costs/prohibitive conditions. Countries like Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia etc are attracting a lot of foreign investment because of their low startup costs. They are set to benefit from this.

Who do you think is the loser here? (rhetorical question)

And if it's so easy to give everyone a great high paying job, with excellent conditions and still turn a profit in a difficult economy with high costs, maybe we should put our money where our mouth is and start up a new company ourselves. I doubt I'll get any PM's pledging the millions of dollars required to do so.

[KIWI-1]

+1 to Pepscobra

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

They are not charities and have no obligation to anyone, bar their share owners and stakeholders.

...and the Australian taxpayer is not a charity for overseas owned car companies and their workers who think they are the backbone of the country and deserve $250,000 per worker per year in charity payments.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

I agree that once upon a time the unions had their place and helped people better their working conditions against greedy treacherous employers and to fight exploitation.
But is that really what is happening here? C'mon.

IMO, this is a simple case of the unions trying to justify their existence.
A company has declared that they will not continue under their current financial situation... What has the union possibly got to gain for its members by forcing a standoff resulting in the company shutting its doors?
Anyone who backs the union position on this is very short sighted I'm afraid..

No arguments here either, but let me explain to those who aren't directly involved and are clearly 'short sighted' on the reality of whats happening here.

Lets assume the dirty rotten filthy unionists (being the outside reps/organisers etc) do infact want to create a standoff with GM to flex a bit of muscle.
Lets now think of the first affected people other than GM / employees supplier companies / employees and the list goes on.

Fact is every tier1/2/3 suppliers employees are union members.

Now lets assume the unions irrational brings GMH down. Their suppliers follow suit just like a game of domino's, with the real possibility of destroying Toyota.

Now lets assume a good 15000+ union membership is now unemployed and no longer financial, therefore no longer belonging to a union.

FACT 1 - Its hardly in the unions best interests is it !
FACT 2 - GM Detroit has directed the closure of Holden and will try to do so as cheaply as possible, WHILST also looking for a scapegoat to blame other than themselves.
The GM US team are a hard lot of people with absolutely no regard for their own let alone Aussies. Their complete attitude during GMs bankruptcy should have highlighted that.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

+1 to Pepscobra



...and the Australian taxpayer is not a charity for overseas owned car companies and their workers who think they are the backbone of the country and deserve $250,000 per worker per year in charity payments.

As you know and have agreed to before, 1 dollar returns $6. so whats your point ???

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

... I doubt I'll get any PM's pledging the millions of dollars required to do so.

Wadaya know... I've had three PM's already pledging donations. The kitty's currently at $70, a carton of VB and a pack of four n twentys.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

Wadaya know... I've had three PM's already pledging donations. The kitty's currently at $70, a carton of VB and a pack of four n twentys.

On Facebook from Obama's spin doctors?

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by fte50

As you know and have agreed to before, 1 dollar returns $6. so whats your point ???

I've never agreed $1=$6, (I AM a mathematician).
What's my point?
Time to give to a new charity that'll provide jobs for the next 100 years, not a mob run by North American's you detest (except on payday), inefficiently building cars that aren't good enough for even you to drive.

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by fte50

Fact is every tier1/2/3 suppliers employees are union members.

Now lets assume the unions irrational brings GMH down. Their suppliers follow suit just like a game of domino's, with the real possibility of destroying Toyota.

Now lets assume a good 15000+ union membership is now unemployed and no longer financial, therefore no longer belonging to a union.

FACT 1 - Its hardly in the unions best interests is it !
FACT 2 - GM Detroit has directed the closure of Holden and will try to do so as cheaply as possible, WHILST also looking for a scapegoat to blame other than themselves.
The GM US team are a hard lot of people with absolutely no regard for their own let alone Aussies. Their complete attitude during GMs bankruptcy should have highlighted that.

This is the bit we agree on and concerns me the most.
It's these industries/people that have the most to lose. So why is the union being so stubborn (for lack of a better word) in considering the labour cost saving proposals from GMH?
Unfortunately, it's Holden's prerogative as a private company to identify where ever it wants where it wishes to cut costs. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, they can run their business the way the want and as soon as it doesn't work for them, they can look at other options.
I'm sure the decision to leave has already been made though :(
Just wish it was 'friendlier' for them to keep going for a bit longer.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

I've never agreed $1=$6, (I AM a mathematician).
What's my point?
Time to give to a new charity that'll provide jobs for the next 100 years, not a mob run by North American's you detest (except on payday), inefficiently building cars that aren't good enough for even you to drive.

Regardless of being a self professed mathematician, the facts don't lie and the numbers are real.

And yes I agree somewhat in funding something new, a new growth industry is a great fantasy, yet the only one likely to prosper in the near future is selling fairy floss to the Chinese tourists.

Finally our cars are world class and better than most given their price points and what they offer, and for the record I drive an Australian car.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

Unfortunately, it's Holden's prerogative as a private company to identify where ever it wants where it wishes to cut costs. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, they can run their business the way the want and as soon as it doesn't work for them, they can look at other options.
I'm sure the decision to leave has already been made though :(
Just wish it was 'friendlier' for them to keep going for a bit longer.

Yes, any company has a right to operate how they see fit, subject to the laws and standards of the nations they operate within.

Fact - many trade unionists in the Asian regions have been previously locked away in 'military prisons' indefinitely.
Not for murder or rape or drug cartels or corporate theft, but for the more serious crime of trying to stage demonstrations / pickets to try and achieve better outcomes in their workplace.

The employer groups relish this practice and gives them a power not seen in the western countries who have human rights standards.
Its one of many other reasons they relocate to these countries.

[gtfpv]

WELL WHO HAS THE MORALS . THE UNIONS OR THE COMPANIES ? the people or the corporates . ?
where did our lucky country come from? morals , or corperations . and how were they won .

if they want to go . pay out the exhorberant redundancies and go . its a simple as that . i'm not bowing down to no corperation who wants to employ children and homeless people for a meal a day . . if thats what makes them happy go for it . and we'll see who wins in the end ?
i may sound angry and pig headed . but we didnt get our lifestyle through the love of the hand that feeds us .
unions . proper unions join together world wide when it is needed , they are bigger than a grump with an opinion behind a computer screen . most people anti union really are on thier own and can be spat out by corperates straight away . real unionism wins . and i wont go further . i could say much more . but i wont . lets just say though numbers in millions speak louder than an anti union dude with all the answers drinking coffee and posting comments on a computer .
much much mcxuh bigger than u and i .

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

I've never agreed $1=$6, (I AM a mathematician).
What's my point?
Time to give to a new charity that'll provide jobs for the next 100 years, not a mob run by North American's you detest (except on payday), inefficiently building cars that aren't good enough for even you to drive.

Oh yes you ARE a Mathematician.

Time to get rid of Academics that are funded by us, and get people that contribute to the economy with management skills, ideas that work and entrepreneurial skills that add value to our economy.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by fte50

for the record I drive an Australian car.

Time to walk the talk and drive a Holden... even if you don't like your North American bosses.

Originally Posted by fte50

Now lets assume the unions irrational brings GMH down. Their suppliers follow suit just like a game of domino's, with the real possibility of destroying Toyota.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Time to walk the talk and drive a Holden... even if you don't like your North American bosses.

Nice Troll.


Troll.

[MAD]

What makes a paid union member more valuable to a business than a non-union member?

[fte50]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Time to walk the talk and drive a Holden... even if you don't like your North American bosses.

Im out of pocket for my choices, but its one life and I live it with pleasure so long as im able to do so.

However, I have not forgotten the contribution Holden made to my life and as such remain a loyal ambassador for the brand - so much so infact I have purchased 9 cars in the last 5 yrs for family/friends.
All of them Commodores of various sorts.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by MAD

What makes a paid union member more valuable to a business than a non-union member?

a paid union member wins or keeps conditions through morals and dignity ,and has backup and legal representation with the union he is in , therefore he can call on experts to keep his legal rights, with backup in numbers also to stop explotation by the business owners, and therefore all the managers get the conditions the union members fought for also , the non union member tries to hold his job and morals and dignity and often gets done over by the business with massive $$$ and legal representation that the non union member just cannot fight .
The end result of a paid union workforce is a happier more respectful workforce , hence more productive and policing of themselves ,they often keep the awards and conditions appropriate to the industry, which also allows new employees equal opertunity rather than having to undercut others to get a job , if the company abides then often they get the best productivity and safest multi skilled workers who will negotiate when needed . they often stamp all over non union work forces with unhappy casual workers and high turnover employees who are often the ones not worth employing .
multi national world wide industries often employ union work forces because they realise the benifits and consequences of not doing so .
it's not by love . more by mutual agreements as even the highest bosses know how evil the $$$$ can be .

[fte50]

Originally Posted by MAD

What makes a paid union member more valuable to a business than a non-union member?

Nothing if all else is equal. But an employer would place more value on a non-member purely coz they are seen as being exploitable due to having no recourse other than the law.

[Bossxr8]

I'd vote no. It's clear they want to pull out and it seems they have even set the date for 2016. So i'd make sure my redundancy is what i'm fully entitled too, not the one they want to force us onto to cut down closure costs. Even blind freddy could see that.

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I'd vote no. It's clear they want to pull out and it seems they have even set the date for 2016. So i'd make sure my redundancy is what i'm fully entitled too, not the one they want to force us onto to cut down closure costs. Even blind freddy could see that.

This.

If Holden really wanted to stay then they would be looking at ways to improve efficiency, swap to building what joe average actually wants to buy, cutting unnecessary expenditure etc etc.
not looking at saving a few thousand per employee to achieve that drop in the bucket of savings...

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

a paid union member wins or keeps conditions through morals and dignity ,and has backup and legal representation with the union he is in , therefore he can call on experts to keep his legal rights, with backup in numbers also to stop explotation by the business owners, and therefore all the managers get the conditions the union members fought for also , the non union member tries to hold his job and morals and dignity and often gets done over by the business with massive $$$ and legal representation that the non union member just cannot fight .
The end result of a paid union workforce is a happier more respectful workforce , hence more productive and policing of themselves ,they often keep the awards and conditions appropriate to the industry, which also allows new employees equal opertunity rather than having to undercut others to get a job , if the company abides then often they get the best productivity and safest multi skilled workers who will negotiate when needed . they often stamp all over non union work forces with unhappy casual workers and high turnover employees who are often the ones not worth employing .
multi national world wide industries often employ union work forces because they realise the benifits and consequences of not doing so .
it's not by love . more by mutual agreements as even the highest bosses know how evil the $$$$ can be .

Your last paragraph just shows why belonging to a union has a certain smell about it ,and its not roses . 24 % of the Australian workforce belong to a union . crikey how do the rest of us survive .
The rest of the post however I gather is tongue in cheek . You do realise copying a document word for word is called plagiarism ! Or is indoctrinating the word I am thinking of comrade.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by fte50

Nothing if all else is equal. But an employer would place more value on a non-member purely coz they are seen as being exploitable due to having no recourse other than the law.

Trust me, unions aren't like they once were. These days, if you need representation, get your own lawyer because the union is a bit of a toothless tiger when it comes to nitty gritty issues.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I'd vote no. It's clear they want to pull out and it seems they have even set the date for 2016. So i'd make sure my redundancy is what i'm fully entitled too, not the one they want to force us onto to cut down closure costs. Even blind freddy could see that.

I agree. And GM are that pig headed, the date in 2016 will be after Ford's date of closure...but it will still be 2016.

Feel for the workers, but GM has really started to p*** me off with the way they are going about this. JUST END IT ALREADY so people can plan for the rest of their lives!

Oh, but all the closet Holden fans on this forum are cheering the monthly sales result of their beloved Commodore. They would need to sell more than double that amount to even have a chance of remaining viable...

[fte50]

Originally Posted by P6LTD351

Trust me, unions aren't like they once were. These days, if you need representation, get your own lawyer because the union is a bit of a toothless tiger when it comes to nitty gritty issues.

Trust me, I trust myself but thanks for the tip.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Your last paragraph just shows why belonging to a union has a certain smell about it ,and its not roses . 24 % of the Australian workforce belong to a union . crikey how do the rest of us survive .
.

Obviously not to good at all, if gauging the majority of the anti union forum members sentiments on here is any sign, whinging that Auto Industry / Holden workers pay & conditions being way too high.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by fte50

Trust me, I trust myself but thanks for the tip.

I used to be a union delegate in my previous job. Unions played a role.

Unions that want the best for their members AND the organisation that pays them, are the way to go. The ones that just side with the worker with no appreciation for the business are the ones that give the good unions a bad name.

I am happy for you if you think that your union will dig deep if you come to trouble on an INDIVIDUAL basis, not collectively.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I'd vote no. It's clear they want to pull out and it seems they have even set the date for 2016. So i'd make sure my redundancy is what i'm fully entitled too, not the one they want to force us onto to cut down closure costs. Even blind freddy could see that.

your redundancy would be whatever money is leftover after everyone else has taken their share before the workers. the workers will be the last to dip into the bucket once a company closes. i think things like long service may be protected by the govt, but redundancies..... good luck if the company claim they are broke etc.