Online shopping v Local shopping

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by flappist

I see your point.

So should it be fair and equal across the board?

How do you think Ford Australia would go if we could buy a BMW or Merc for the same price as in Europe?
And of course no warranty which you don't need with Australian made cars do you?
No more Falcons anymore....

And should all employees be even?
No unions?
No penalty rates?
No job protection?
No awards?



Hey you work for money and can be sacked on the spot if someone else will do it cheaper?

One of the most obvious differences between Americans and Australians is that Americans see someone who is successful and applaud them, want to be like them and will work to achieve their goal whereas Australians attack them but would be like them if they did not actually have to do any work and just constantly complain that everything is not fair and someone ELSE should do something about it.

And we wonder why we are in such a nanny state mess..........

Having being there 5 times in 7 years with family living there.. The U.S is in big trouble and not a totally good system to follow..

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Having being there 5 times in 7 years with family living there.. The U.S is in big trouble and not a totally good system to follow..

I absolutely agree.

The American way of price being the only concern and selfishly not caring about anything except how much money can be saved regardless of consequences has got them to where they are today.

Yet so many here want to follow them.......

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by flappist

I absolutely agree.

The American way of price being the only concern and selfishly not caring about anything except how much money can be saved regardless of consequences has got them to where they are today.

Yet so many here want to follow them.......

That is very true but we are not always talking the last few dollars in price difference are we?

[snappy]

Originally Posted by flappist

I absolutely agree.

The American way of price being the only concern and selfishly not caring about anything except how much money can be saved regardless of consequences has got them to where they are today.

Yet so many here want to follow them.......

I would have to say Its more because they are constantly being robbed by the rich . But in other ways its the free Market that has allowed them to do it .

[flappist]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

That is very true but we are not always talking the last few dollars in price difference are we?

And that is where it gets a bit complex.

Some things are hugely cheaper overseas often because the market here is so small for those items and, for example, bringing it parts for a Mini Cooper to be held in stock on the off chance that one of the small number of owners will want to but one in a reasonably short time is somewhat of a gamble.
Other things are only cheaper because there are no taxes or Australian specific on-costs.

The online shops in Australian are one thing but the online shops overseas is another.

The Australian supplier by LAW must provide warranty both in the form of parts and labour whereas the overseas exporter does not.
The Australian supplier has to pay GST.
The Australian supplier has to pay their employees at a much higher rate than oversees, penalty rated, workers comp, sickies, holidays with holiday loading possibly payroll tax and the employees pay PAYG (this is where most of the money for your ambulances comes from by the way).

Now lets take a look at the possible extrapolation of this whole thing.

Buying on line shuts down some of the chains such as the super villain Harvey Norman. Gerry Harvey will still be richer than anyone on AFF so he is not affected.
Of course the thousands of now unemployed ex HN staff will be affected as will the Myers/Bing Lee/Good Guys/Supacheap/Autopro/Big W/all the rest hundreds of thousands of employees. The flow on to all the coffee shops ,news agents will be noticed

Of course there will be huge mega online suppliers employing a few store men and truck drivers.

But don't worry, the majority of jobs are not in danger. After all if all our money goes overseas no one needs to spend any of it here.

Now I believe in "fair and equal" and have no problem with competing with overseas PROVIDED the competition is fair and equal.

The only way to do that is to make any item sold within Australia that is under $1000 exempt from GST and warranty and remove all penalty rates from all employees. Then it will all be fair and equal.

Of course when your $999 LCD that you bought on a public holiday goes boom 3 days after you buy it and the shop where you bought it (and every other shop) just wants to sell you a new better one you might not think this is such a good idea.......

[flappist]

Originally Posted by snappy

I would have to say Its more because they are constantly being robbed by the rich . But in other ways its the free Market that has allowed them to do it .

Do you have a job?

Does the work that you do make money from people who earn less than you such as unemployed, students or pensioners etc.?

Are you one of the "rich robbing the poor"?

Or are you one of the over 1,000,000 Australians who is not working and is basically robbing everyone?

What goes around comes around and if we do not look after ourselves as a society then no one else will.......

[randel]

Originally Posted by flappist

And that is where it gets a bit complex.

Some things are hugely cheaper overseas often because the market here is so small for those items and, for example, bringing it parts for a Mini Cooper to be held in stock on the off chance that one of the small number of owners will want to but one in a reasonably short time is somewhat of a gamble.
Other things are only cheaper because there are no taxes or Australian specific on-costs.

The online shops in Australian are one thing but the online shops overseas is another.

The Australian supplier by LAW must provide warranty both in the form of parts and labour whereas the overseas exporter does not.
The Australian supplier has to pay GST.
The Australian supplier has to pay their employees at a much higher rate than oversees, penalty rated, workers comp, sickies, holidays with holiday loading possibly payroll tax and the employees pay PAYG (this is where most of the money for your ambulances comes from by the way).

Now lets take a look at the possible extrapolation of this whole thing.

Buying on line shuts down some of the chains such as the super villain Harvey Norman. Gerry Harvey will still be richer than anyone on AFF so he is not affected.
Of course the thousands of now unemployed ex HN staff will be affected as will the Myers/Bing Lee/Good Guys/Supacheap/Autopro/Big W/all the rest hundreds of thousands of employees. The flow on to all the coffee shops ,news agents will be noticed

Of course there will be huge mega online suppliers employing a few store men and truck drivers.

But don't worry, the majority of jobs are not in danger. After all if all our money goes overseas no one needs to spend any of it here.

Now I believe in "fair and equal" and have no problem with competing with overseas PROVIDED the competition is fair and equal.

The only way to do that is to make any item sold within Australia that is under $1000 exempt from GST and warranty and remove all penalty rates from all employees. Then it will all be fair and equal.

Of course when your $999 LCD that you bought on a public holiday goes boom 3 days after you buy it and the shop where you bought it (and every other shop) just wants to sell you a new better one you might not think this is such a good idea.......

so true - well said Flappist....

[GreenR]

Originally Posted by flappist

The Australian supplier by LAW must provide warranty both in the form of parts and labour
The Australian supplier has to pay GST.
The Australian supplier has to pay their employees at a much higher rate than oversees, penalty rated, workers comp, sickies, holidays with holiday loading possibly payroll tax and the employees pay PAYG

Do you honestly think that these few things are the sole reason why such a huge markup occurs on some items sold here in Australia? Others have already highlighted some massive price differences between here and overseas. Differences which I find hard to believe is only to cover the following costs you have listed.

Originally Posted by flappist

Buying on line shuts down some of the chains such as the super villain Harvey Norman. Gerry Harvey will still be richer than anyone on AFF so he is not affected.
Of course the thousands of now unemployed ex HN staff will be affected as will the Myers/Bing Lee/Good Guys/Supacheap/Autopro/Big W/all the rest hundreds of thousands of employees.

You have just said it yourself that the boss's such as Gerry Harvey will still be richer than everybody else. So if he fails to
1-recognize a problem
2-cut profits where necessary
3-adjust his attitude and business strategy accordingly
therefore resulting in lost jobs, ultimately that is his own doing and not ours.

[4Vman]

Id love to know what kind of profit margins some people think places like HN, Myers etc make..... I think many of you would be very surprised just how low they are....
100% markup on products "might" eventuate into a 1-5% profit.... if they're lucky..
The cost of providing employment in Australia is the largest single cost of any business.

One strategy Gerry could adopt is sack 3/4 of his staff and provide product "warehouses" where people self serve.... No technical help, no demo's, no advice, no sales assistance, no products to try or on display. You work out what you want, pick it up and pay for it through an automated teller....

But there would be uproar from the socialists if he did that wouldnt there...

[4Vman]

Delete

[ebxr8240]

Thing to keep in mind ?? He's selling a franchise ...

[AC/DC]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Id love to know what kind of profit margins some people think places like HN, Myers etc make..... I think many of you would be very surprised just how low they are....
100% markup on products "might" eventuate into a 1-5% profit.... if they're lucky..
The cost of providing employment in Australia is the largest single cost of any business.

One strategy Gerry could adopt is sack 3/4 of his staff and provide product "warehouses" where people self serve.... No technical help, no demo's, no advice, no sales assistance, no products to try or on display. You work out what you want, pick it up and pay for it through an automated teller....

But there would be uproar from the socialists if he did that wouldnt there...

Well Said....... strangely we dont make 20% on laptops of flatscreen TV !

[Director]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Id love to know what kind of profit margins some people think places like HN, Myers etc make..... I think many of you would be very surprised just how low they are....
100% markup on products "might" eventuate into a 1-5% profit.... if they're lucky..
The cost of providing employment in Australia is the largest single cost of any business.

One strategy Gerry could adopt is sack 3/4 of his staff and provide product "warehouses" where people self serve.... No technical help, no demo's, no advice, no sales assistance, no products to try or on display. You work out what you want, pick it up and pay for it through an automated teller....

But there would be uproar from the socialists if he did that wouldnt there...

I think even a few right wingers might get their knickers in a twist as well. Perhaps Gerry could just sell the benefits of helpful staff, promote the in store experience, promote the benefits of speaking to knowledgeable staff and "re frame" the current debate.

[Bucknaked]

I went to Harvey Norman today to have a look at some stuff I want to buy. Place was packed. Lines at the registers and salesman were busy serving people. Even with the amount of customers in store, I had 3 different salesman come up to me asking if I wanted any assistance.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by plarazza

Do you honestly think that these few things are the sole reason why such a huge markup occurs on some items sold here in Australia? Others have already highlighted some massive price differences between here and overseas. Differences which I find hard to believe is only to cover the following costs you have listed.



You have just said it yourself that the boss's such as Gerry Harvey will still be richer than everybody else. So if he fails to
1-recognize a problem
2-cut profits where necessary
3-adjust his attitude and business strategy accordingly
therefore resulting in lost jobs, ultimately that is his own doing and not ours.

And what part of the retail industry do you work in?

The interesting thing is that I was in the local HN yesterday and it was full of customers including two line ups at the counters so I suspent apart from a few rabid stirrers and a few in the media, nobody actually cares.....

[cs123]

Originally Posted by flappist

And what part of the retail industry do you work in?

Why are we drawing a line in the sand with retail going OS.
What about manufacturing?
What about IT being sent off shore?

What have the big retailers (or small) done to protect our jobs. Answer is nothing. They have exploited OS labour for their own gains for years.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by cs123

Why are we drawing a line in the sand with retail going OS.
What about manufacturing?
What about IT being sent off shore?

What have the big retailers (or small) done to protect our jobs. Answer is nothing. They have exploited OS labour for their own gains for years.

Hmm, which sales staff are overseas? Do they commute daily?
Quite a large number of people are employed by big retailers.

But of the rest....

Manufacturing pays the same taxes when the equipment is brought in. If a product can be made overseas for less because Australian workers want too much money then whose fault is that?

IT is a good one as it is purely labour and is extremely competitive as you you would know.

The problem is just like road laws.
You only see HN etc. and ignore the thousands of other who suffer because of this in the same way that the car haters only see the idiot doing 200km/h past a school in a skyline and ignore everyone else.

As stated earlier I have no problem with any of it provided it is fair and equal.

[Racecraft]

Originally Posted by Buck naked

I went to Harvey Norman today to have a look at some stuff I want to buy. Place was packed. Lines at the registers and salesman were busy serving people. Even with the amount of customers in store, I had 3 different salesman come up to me asking if I wanted any assistance.

Yes but of the 3 salesman coming Upton you, 0 would of had any product knowledge or ability to talk margins and savings to complete the sale without asking you to wait patiently while they found someone( ie:- the store pc) that has preemptive tabbed boxes.....

Retail is about product knowledge and making money...

Australia seems to have three types of salesmen:-
1. they get paid no matter how satisfied you as the customer are at the product you bought or how much you pay for said item(s)
2. they are not even sure what it is you are looking for or what exactly it is you want the product to do.
3. They know the margins for a good deal by market research, they know their product line and 'the customer is always right' consumer relations attitude...

If retail in Oz was full of number 3's people would have confidence and pay the money.... Failing that 10 Min's on-line can do away with salesmen types 1 & 2 and save a precious buck.....

[AC/DC]

Originally Posted by Racecraft

... Failing that 10 Min's on-line can do away with salesmen types 1 & 2 and save a precious buck.....

True, , , The internet is all truth !. I believe every review and comment about products on the net :-)

Whatever happened to customers doing some basic research before going shopping. If you dont we will simply sell you the highest margin item we can. However if you ask for a "pioneer" for example then we will take you straight to the pioneer !. ( then we will barrage the 5hit out of you for a warranty, leads, cleaner, surge board ! ! ! ! ! )

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by flappist

And that is where it gets a bit complex.

Some things are hugely cheaper overseas often because the market here is so small for those items and, for example, bringing it parts for a Mini Cooper to be held in stock on the off chance that one of the small number of owners will want to but one in a reasonably short time is somewhat of a gamble.
Other things are only cheaper because there are no taxes or Australian specific on-costs.

The number of owners of Mini Coopers may be a bit small in Hervey Bay but have a look around Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane and the numbers are much greater. Then add that this sensor fits all 1.6L turbo cooper S, Clubman S, Cabrio S and the soon to be released Countyman S, the numbers add up. Consider also that the same part number fits Peugeot 207, 308, RCZ as well as Citroen DS3 and C4 due to the fact that all these cars use the same PSA 1.6L T engine that is in the mini. Now the numbers have greatly increased.

Now factor into account that many of these cars are approaching 100,000 km and outside of their 3 year warranty, there is an increasing market for non genuine parts.

Added to that, if the demand for a consumable item like an O2 sensor is so terrible, why can I buy DBA rotors to suit the same vehicle (of which they fit nothing else except mini) and I can buy non genuine brake pads in any reputable brake parts specialist retailer?

I think it is more Bosch capitalising on the assumption that euro car buyers will pay any price for consumables on their car. Like I said before, I can understand an increase due to the chain of supply and costs of staff but 100% more is not just extra costs. But do not worry, I promise I will spend the $200 I save in the businesses of other australian retailers and service providers.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by AC/DC

True, , , The internet is all truth !. I believe every review and comment about products on the net :-)

Whatever happened to customers doing some basic research before going shopping. If you dont we will simply sell you the highest margin item we can. However if you ask for a "pioneer" for example then we will take you straight to the pioneer !. ( then we will barrage the 5hit out of you for a warranty, leads, cleaner, surge board ! ! ! ! ! )

Most manufacturers give specs and details on their own web site, which you should be able to trust is true. Often reading just that will give you much more knowledge than the salesman in the store etc.

I good example is I can read up on the latest Brand X car on the internet on the Brand X site. I can then walk into the Brand X car yard and prove on numerous occasions I know the Brand X product better than the salesman. Added to that I also prove numerous times I know the competitors to that car better than he does too. What happened to salesmen knowing their product, the competitors product and being able to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of both in order to provide the customer with quality service? This is a situation I found on a number of occasions when buying the Mini at a number of different dealers and brands.

Also, might I add that I would consider OS shopping on an item which I do not expect a warranty or after sales support (eg a O2 sensor). If it is faulty it is my problem, not that of any retailer in Australia. If I did not add to that retailers profit margin, I have no right to that service. On larger items such as computers, entertainment equipment, white goods, cars etc where I expect warranty and after sales service, I shop locally.

[vztrt]

Seems people are still shopping.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...09/3109074.htm

Post-Christmas sales disappoint retailers

Updated January 9, 2011 11:45:00

Despite a bumper first week of post-Christmas sales, figures released by the Australian Retailers Association shows growth is stagnant.

Sales figures are up 3 per cent from the same time last year, with consumers spending almost $7 billion, a record amount.

But Russell Zimmerman from the Australian Retailers Association says even though it is a record amount, the rate of growth is quite modest compared to past years.

"In the past, we've probably seen figures of an increase of around about, you know, 5 or 6 per cent in years gone by," he said.

"We're only predicting a 3 per cent increase on our post-Christmas sales, and realistically, that's probably not even covering inflation."

Mr Zimmerman says the quiet lead-up to Christmas will impact the rate of growth.

"We know that leading into Christmas that it was much quieter than normal," he said.

"We do know that the week directly after Christmas, on the post-Christmas sales was reasonably strong, but we have since heard that it's slowed right down."

There was public outcry last week after a coalition of retailers led by Harvey Norman head Gerry Harvey launched a campaign calling for the Government to scrap the GST or introduce a tax for online purchases.

[Racecraft]

Originally Posted by AC/DC

True, , , The internet is all truth !. I believe every review and comment about products on the net :-)

Whatever happened to customers doing some basic research before going shopping. If you dint we will simply sell you the highest margin item we can. However if you ask for a "pioneer" for example then we will take you straight to the pioneer !. ( then we will barrage the 5hit out of you for a warranty, leads, cleaner, surge board ! ! ! ! ! )

You have shot yourself in the foot..
Reviews are on the internet - good, bad, biased etc... same as here say and word of mouth recommendations
Basic research is done via internet
Cross referencing products and features again available at your leisure on the internet

And heaven forbid cheaper via the internet

[snappy]

I just think it funny how its always the consumer that has to take the hit .
Retailers went over seas bypassing local manufacturing because to give there businesses the edge over there competitors selling more for cheaper . Now we can bypass the retailers . Buying more for less but know you cant do that you have to subsidise us . Well we probably do but bugger me this unholy hunt for bigger and larger profits has to stop sometime.


And flappist from you quoting me earlier not what i was getting at but nice try . It was more of a shot at the people dealing with imaginary money but expecting real in return .

[flappist]

Originally Posted by snappy

I just think it funny how its always the consumer that has to take the hit .
Retailers went over seas bypassing local manufacturing because to give there businesses the edge over there competitors selling more for cheaper . Now we can bypass the retailers . Buying more for less but know you cant do that you have to subsidise us . Well we probably do but bugger me this unholy hunt for bigger and larger profits has to stop sometime.


And flappist from you quoting me earlier not what i was getting at but nice try . It was more of a shot at the people dealing with imaginary money but expecting real in return .

Ah ok, I retract then.

[Dazza XLT]

I buy a lot of my golf gear online, both from Australia and the US when the dollar suits.

Recently my spending habits have changed, finally there's someone in the golf industry locally who actually values my business. Went in last year and got fully fitted and purchased a set of irons from him. Probably cost me $200-$300 more, but I don't mind paying extra when I'm getting some decent service...
Since then he's been getting a lot more of my business.

But.....
Paying $200-300 more on a full set I can handle, but not $200 on one club. When organising a replacement driver last year, they had them locally for $449. Ended up landing one to my door from the US, brand new, for $225.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by flappist

Hmm, which sales staff are overseas? Do they commute daily?
Quite a large number of people are employed by big retailers.

But of the rest....

Manufacturing pays the same taxes when the equipment is brought in. If a product can be made overseas for less because Australian workers want too much money then whose fault is that?

...

...

As stated earlier I have no problem with any of it provided it is fair and equal.

Wow, the mind boggles. How is manufacturings lost wages any different to the thread topic? Wasnt one of your concerns about the lost jobs in HN?

Youre saying its the workers fault they want too much? So by that logic if they took less, then they would have less to spend, flow on effect to the economy. Same argument. Whats the difference? Their wages reflect the wage a mining company has to offer to get staff too, it has a direct impact on the cost of labour by its effects on supply and demand of that labour. Which effects the amount people will pay for housing, builders, and so on. Supply and demand applies to all 'commodities' in an economy, not simply goods. Labour is a service and its price is subject to the effects of supply.

Why dont we just suggest HN staff ask too much and cut that instead? Whats the difference between that and your argument the workers sent manufacturing OS? Maybe 4vMan can cut his costs in his business, he mentioned working with HN? Maybe he is asking too much?

The hypocrisy is amazing.



Do you really expect the taxpayer to foot the bill to make it more level? A level that wont generate any benefit anyway. Youre happy to have the government pay more to collect and enforce, than they get in return? A cost that wont net any gains for Harvey Norman, one that wont keep jobs at HN? Its only those under $1000. The price difference wont send people in droves back to the stores, so there is really no gains to be made, but a substantial cost to the government budgets.

Or do you expect that buying online should have an added tax that replicates a local business? You know, tariffs? Protectionism? Shouldnt that then extend to imports being taxed to reflect the cost of manufacturing the item in Aus in the first place?


Where does the level playing field end?


Yeah, theres tall poppy syndrome, and then there white knighting your damsel in distress.

[vztrt]

http://www.theage.com.au/business/gi...110-19kog.html

Gillard reluctant to slam online shoppers with tax
January 10, 2011 - 2:55PM



Australians who hunt for bargains while shopping online should be allowed to continue doing so, Prime Minister Julia Gillard says.

She says the government will wait for the outcome of a Productivity Commission inquiry before formally responding to a push by big retailers to impose the goods and services tax on online purchases from overseas.

The high-profile campaign, led by the likes of Harvey Norman, Myer and Target, has sparked the ire of shoppers, who argue it is their right to buy cheaper goods online.
Advertisement: Story continues below

Ms Gillard said today that axing the GST-free threshold of $1000 would not be financially smart.

"It would cost more in administration costs than would be recovered in revenue," she told reporters in Canberra.

"I would be very reluctant to see Australians who are facing cost-of-living pressures not able to access shopping on the internet in the way they access it now."

But she also maintained that the government would not be rushed into a decision.

"There is a process for dealing with GST and online sales questions ... we have the Productivity Commission process," she said.

Asked if the GST rate should be raised at the government's big tax summit, which is due to be held before July, Ms Gillard said: "The GST is not on the government’s agenda.

"There is absolutely no way in the world that the government is going to be revisiting rate-of-GST questions."

AAP

[flappist]

Yeh it's L.A.W. law........there will never be a GST.....by 1990 no child will be living in poverty......there's more chance of me becoming the full-forward for the Dogs than there is any chance of a change in the Labor party.....

yeh yeh yada yada yada.......

[buggerlugs]

Onya Joylea. Moving forward.............