Holden, Falcon and P platers of the near future

flappist · 06-10-2009, 03:35 PM

Having a look at the new SIDI Commodore and the proposed new Falcons one interesting feature appeared.

New 210kw SIDI, not P plate legal.
New T4 Falcon, not P plate legal.
New I6 Falcon (if it matches the holden) will be not P plate legal.

If this is the actual case then the only P plate legal falcons will be a possible diesel or LPG provided they are under 200kw and the only Commodore is the 3.0l Omega.

Brand loyalty is a learned thing and if Falcons are not available for 3 years many young drivers are going to develop allegiances to other marques.

I suspect Maccas car parks in 2020 are going to be very fast and furious places....

Fev · 06-10-2009, 03:54 PM

depends which state though doesn't it. NSW should be fine for I6's

RedHotGT · 06-10-2009, 04:21 PM

Not sure where to begin arguing with you this time flappist.... but i'll be brief so others can have a turn as well...

Point 1 - I'm pretty sure that car manufacturers don't design their cars with P-platers as their target market.
Point 2 - 125kw per tonne is the limit for P-Platers (as far as I know for VIC) so if the commodore weighs 1690kg (as specifications) then 210kw is OK (just...)...
Point 3 - Brand loyalty is great.... did you know that Ford also makes other good quality vehicles other than Large rear wheel drive cars?
Point 4 - Laws and regulations change with technology and development. So while these new cars with 200kw of power might sound great for the kids... they also have ABS, ESC, plus a host of other safety features (including more airbags than a breast-implant convention)...

I'm sure others will have something to say....

Wretched · 06-10-2009, 04:45 PM

for vic

Quote:

Drivers who obtained their probationary licence on or after 1 July 2007 can drive some lower-performance turbocharged or supercharged vehicles. These vehicles generally have improved safety features and greater fuel-efficiency and can be driven by probationary drivers.

Probationary drivers may apply to drive vehicles with 6 cylinders or less that are:

* turbocharged or supercharged with a power to weight ratio of less than 100kW per tonne;
* turbocharged or supercharged with a power to weight ratio between 100kW and 125kW per tonne and that are considered to be a family type vehicle (4 seats or more) rather than a sports type vehicle.

A family type vehicle is a sedan, station wagon or hatch normally used to carry families/passengers with 4 or more seats and is equipped with child restraint anchorages and does not include sports cars eg a two door coupe.

Vehicles with eight cylinders or more, family type-type vehicles with more than 125KW per tonne or other vehicles with more than 100KW per tonne will NOT be granted under this scheme.

Probationary drivers may drive diesel-powered supercharged and turbocharged vehicles provided they have no more than 6 cylinders. No exemption is required.

http://www.arrivealive.vic.gov.au/in...ply_if_yo.html

They may or may not change these laws, after all the law makers here are so out of touch, they won't know what to do with the introduction of these new engines, they'll panic and end up banning everything.

FalconXV · 06-10-2009, 05:18 PM

Volkswagen got an exemption for it's TSI vehicles, I'm sure Ford could do the same for EB Falc.

Franco Cozzo · 06-10-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Having a look at the new SIDI Commodore and the proposed new Falcons one interesting feature appeared.

New 210kw SIDI, not P plate legal.
New T4 Falcon, not P plate legal.
New I6 Falcon (if it matches the holden) will be not P plate legal.

If this is the actual case then the only P plate legal falcons will be a possible diesel or LPG provided they are under 200kw and the only Commodore is the 3.0l Omega.

Brand loyalty is a learned thing and if Falcons are not available for 3 years many young drivers are going to develop allegiances to other marques.

I suspect Maccas car parks in 2020 are going to be very fast and furious places....

Should be right in Vic, assuming its under 125Kw/tonne, we wont be able to drive the T4 one, but I6 one, yep. The chances of getting an exemption to drive a turbo car here are buckleys and none.

burnz · 06-10-2009, 05:34 PM

i think n.s.w. is capacity ~ 3.0ltr per tonne

Chopped · 06-10-2009, 05:37 PM

How many P platers buy brand new $40,000+ cars ?

(It wouldn't be many)

burnz · 06-10-2009, 05:44 PM

cut from the rta

Vehicles – You must not drive any vehicle with:
Eight or more cylinders.
A turbocharged or supercharged engine (diesel powered engines exempt).
Modifications that increase engine performance.
Any other vehicle identified by the RTA – further details available on the RTA website.
Please note exemptions may apply.

Franco Cozzo · 06-10-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopped

How many P platers buy brand new $40,000+ cars ?

(It wouldn't be many)

Its not now, its in 5-10 years time, if they keep moving on from what they are at now, you'll find P platers will be buying Toyota, Mazda, Nissan, Kia (The new Kia Koup looks freakin' awesome) etc.

ford_maiden · 06-10-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

cut from the rta

Vehicles – You must not drive any vehicle with:
Eight or more cylinders.
A turbocharged or supercharged engine (diesel powered engines exempt).
Modifications that increase engine performance.
Any other vehicle identified by the RTA – further details available on the RTA website.
Please note exemptions may apply.

they the QLD laws,
and i agree brand new cars are not put into production for P platers, and as for loyalty thing im pretty sure that the older falcons are fine for P platers to drive. and more in their price range

ford_maiden · 06-10-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XCPWSF

Its not now, its in 5-10 years time, if they keep moving on from what they are at now, you'll find P platers will be buying Toyota, Mazda, Nissan, Kia (The new Kia Koup looks freakin' awesome) etc.

in 5-10 years time the laws may have changed again and i think pulling young and inexperienced drivers out of powerful cars is a good idea though some of the restrictions go a bit far,

Swordsman88 · 06-10-2009, 05:59 PM

Some good points made already by other posters (particularly the issue of p platers not really driving brand new cars as much). BUT, this is an issue and if you look at the car industry generally not only are rated power figures going up (due to increased weight/marketing) but the use of ecoboost style turbo engined cars is also going to become more prevalent. This will lead to more petitioning by car companies, and increased complaints to politicians via state transport dept etc. And then eventually the gov/s will have to change the laws. Which of course everyone in the business saw coming but short sighted beaurecrats either didnt' or tried to make it simple for public consumption. Horsepower/kg is the closest method that works but that is fraught with problems RE atcual safety due to braking, handling issues. You do alot more damage to others in a 2.2 tonne SUV with rubbish active safety then a 1.4 tonne hot hatch for example but its the former not the latter the law would rather you drive.

While in principal these laws aren't a bad idea it doesnt address the true safety issue/s. P platers need to have the skill to control/operate whatever car they happen to drive (theirs, friends, family etc.). Older cars that are allowed by these rules would require more skill then newer models, not less.

Franco Cozzo · 06-10-2009, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Some good points made already by other posters (particularly the issue of p platers not really driving brand new cars as much). BUT, this is an issue and if you look at the car industry generally not only are rated power figures going up (due to increased weight/marketing) but the use of ecoboost style turbo engined cars is also going to become more prevalent. This will lead to more petitioning by car companies, and increased complaints to politicians via state transport dept etc. And then eventually the gov/s will have to change the laws. Which of course everyone in the business saw coming but short sighted beaurecrats either didnt' or tried to make it simple for public consumption. Horsepower/kg is the closest method that works but that is fraught with problems RE atcual safety due to braking, handling issues. You do alot more damage to others in a 2.2 tonne SUV with rubbish active safety then a 1.4 tonne hot hatch for example but its the former not the latter the law would rather you drive.

While in principal these laws aren't a bad idea it doesnt address the true safety issue/s. P platers need to have the skill to control/operate whatever car they happen to drive (theirs, friends, family etc.). Older cars that are allowed by these rules would require more skill then newer models, not less.

I do agree on the power to weight ratio restrictions, but not the no V8s, I can't legally drive a Ford F350 (Well, I can because I'm still on my Ls, I'm a lazy bastard and we have no vehicle restrictions) but the new FG XR6, yeah I can drive that. They should have done what they have and banned specific V8 models, they banned the 350/370Z, BMW M3 and the like, I'm sure they can ban specific high powered V8 cars.

Lets face it, the Windsor V8 in the E series Falcons (which every P plater can afford) is pretty crap, the EL XR6 is actually faster to 100 than the XR8 is, but they can drive the XR6. The 351 in the X series Falcons only put out aroudn 150Kw, but again P platers can't drive them.

I wont say more because P plates is a taboo subject around this place.

burnz · 06-10-2009, 06:05 PM

hp per kw is a bit hard for joe officer, unless they say get a dyno print out.

n.s.w. is easer "Modifications that increase engine performance." RE: the humble header's, cat back, ortrcia, and so on.

Franco Cozzo · 06-10-2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

hp per kw is a bit hard for joe officer, unless they say get a dyno print out.

n.s.w. is easer "Modifications that increase engine performance." RE: the humble header's, cat back, ortrcia, and so on.

Get the authorities to make a big list for the officers to carry of cars that exceed power to weight ratio laws.

burnz · 06-10-2009, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XCPWSF

Get the authorities to make a big list for the officers to carry of cars that exceed power to weight ratio laws.

"missed the point" XR6 with headers, catback, otrcia, kn panel filter, cam, head work, tune.
does that exceed the power to weight ratio??

Franco Cozzo · 06-10-2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

"missed the point" XR6 with headers, catback, otrcia, kn panel filter, cam, head work, tune.
does that exceed the power to weight ratio??

Power to weight ratios are based on factory figures and at the engine, not at the rear wheels after modifications, because those mods are illegal for a P plater down here in Vic anyway.

You arent allowed to do anything for performance. You can lower, tint the windows and change the wheels, thats about it. I've looked into every possible way to find loopholes in the law for the last 2 years and there is none.

burnz · 06-10-2009, 06:25 PM

exactly my point

flappist · 06-10-2009, 06:25 PM

Why do so many never actually read the thread before posting?

2020 is 11 years from now when the 2010 model cars will be 10 years old or equivalent to AU falcons now. Anyone ever seen a P plater drive an AU falcon?
Ever seen a P plater in a 5 year old BA? Or a 3 year old BF?
Plenty of them around.

The 200kw limit applies to QLD and possibly other states although several vehicles that are N/A 6 cylinders such as 350/370Z, M3, Porsche etc are specifically precluded.

I am quite aware that P plate drives are not even remotely in the thinking of Ford/Holden marketing.

The point I was highlighting was that in some places and maybe soon all places basic falcons or commodores may not be available to drivers for the first 3 years of their license.

I do not think that this is a good thing for potential brand loyalty as after many years of owning front wheel drive, reliable, economical vehicles many may not have much interest in driving falcons or commodores as they will be "old people's cars".

How many of you here are looking to buy a BMW, Audi, Merc etc. one day? Or do you not even look at them on the way to the Ford shop to buy your next Falcon/FPV to replace your old Falcon/FPV?

The current system for P legal is convoluted and diverse. I suspect it will be standardised in a similar manner to the LAMS system for motorcycles.

I hope that Falcon is on that list for the sake of all Ford enthusiasts as if there in not as larger market for a vehicle second hand (open license only) then resale will be lower and therefore the retails new sales will be affected.

Fev · 06-10-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XCPWSF

Power to weight ratios are based on factory figures and at the engine, not at the rear wheels after modifications, because those mods are illegal for a P plater down here in Vic anyway.

You arent allowed to do anything for performance. You can lower, tint the windows and change the wheels, thats about it. I've looked into every possible way to find loopholes in the law for the last 2 years and there is none.

what you have to realise about that is unless you have an engineers certificate 99.9% of ALL modifications are illegal because it's not the factory standard. things like air intakes and exhausts are illegal because they change emissions. Air bag suspension or those mufflers with a remote control valve are illegal because you can change the state of the part from inside the car. new wheels that have a 2in difference from the standard wheels are illegal aswell.

The good thing is 99% of these modifications you perform will never really be picked on unless you're in for example a bright yellow S15 dumped with big chromies.
The best way to go about modifying a car is doing it both safely and under the radar..
I've only just got off my green p's - and in those 4 years before i got my blacks i was pulled over ONCE. Stay under the radar and you're a happy driver.

burnz · 06-10-2009, 06:31 PM

i see your point a Q.L.D. thing!

but in nsw,nothing to do with kw/tonne
buy the car no tuch, bog stock as per manufacture.

Franco Cozzo · 06-10-2009, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

How many of you here are looking to buy a BMW, Audi, Merc etc. one day? Or do you not even look at them on the way to the Ford shop to buy your next Falcon/FPV to replace your old Falcon/FPV?

I hope that Falcon is on that list for the sake of all Ford enthusiasts as if there in not as larger market for a vehicle second hand (open license only) then resale will be lower and therefore the retails new sales will be affected.

I wouldn't mind a BMW or one of those other car makes you listed, but Ford offers cars which are good on "performance" at a cheap price, compared to one of those brands. The only dealership other than Ford ones I went to when I was looking at new cars was Mazda and the car I looked at was a Mazda 2, I payed the extra $800 for around 10Kw more and a little bit more torque. I would like my next new car to be a Falcon.

My boss bought a Lexus RX350 which cost him $109,000, personally I'd rather a Territory Ghia or the FPV Territory which isn't made anymore than a glorified Toyota with HIDs, leather seats and enough electronics to wipe your bum for you.

PoweredByCNG · 06-10-2009, 07:06 PM

The new Liquid injection LPG Falcon to be introduced next year will NOT be under 200kW.

Regards,
Dave

Ibrox90 · 06-10-2009, 08:38 PM

Its a shame SA are soon bringing in new laws. altho in SA there will be exemptions. Such as if you already own a car that is "high performance" or if you only have access to a high performance vechicle. I e your old man only has 4 GT's and drag car

naddis01 · 06-10-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopped

How many P platers buy brand new $40,000+ cars ?

(It wouldn't be many)

How many parents are buying $40,000+ cars as family cars that P platers will be driving? Quite a few I would say. Just because the P plater isn't buying the car, doesnt mean it isn't an issue. Even though it seems it isn't an issue in NSW and Vic anyway.

Franco Cozzo · 06-10-2009, 09:55 PM

http://www.officeofroadsafety.wa.gov...csPowerfulCars

Well, this is sure to kick up a storm.

JACK250 · 06-10-2009, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XCPWSF

http://www.officeofroadsafety.wa.gov...csPowerfulCars

Well, this is sure to kick up a storm.

Holy crap they actually make logical conclusions! Wish Vic was like that.
Only 3% of P plate crashes were in cars with a power to weight ratio of over 100kw/tonne... EDIT: In W.A

mrbaxr6t · 06-10-2009, 10:09 PM

over time all cars become more powerful accross the board - all of them, at the same time they come equipped with better brakes more airbags and more driver assists like ABS EBD etc..

Many accidents would result in far less injuries to younger drivers if only they were driving a newer safer car - my problem with this is safety, if my kids were to have an accident I would prefer them to be driving a car <5 years old so they have less chance of being permanently injured. Don't want "P" platers speeding? fit their cars with a GPS box that reduces or limits speed (technology exists). Dont want them doing wheelies that too is easy, make their cars have traction control and when turned off car no drive (also an existing technology). While we are making p plater specific vehicles fit them with a breath tester so they must be sober to drive (also existing technology).

Safety of children should be the most important factor here, forcing them into older cars is a slap in the face, why put the most likely to have an accident in a car that isn't as safe as we can make ??

the falcodoors are some of the safest available, why not let "P" platers drive safe cars??

<rant>
in my opinion there should be a minimum ancap crash star rating cars must have to be "P" plate eligible, this is every bit as important as the power of the vehicle.
</rant>

JACK250 · 06-10-2009, 10:11 PM

<rant>
in my opinion there should be a minimum ancap crash star rating cars must have to be "P" plate eligible, this is every bit as important as the power of the vehicle.
</rant>[/QUOTE]

If that happened I'd be in trouble, anyone know the safety rating of an XM panel van?