Hydrogen technology - will it ever be feasible?

RG · 24-01-2008, 08:11 PM

At work today I was looking at a big display by BMW that we have at the moment (I work at Federation Square) for their new "clean energy" hydrogen powered 7 series. I wandered through their marquee, which was very impressive, and then had a look at the "Hydrogen 7" which is due for release soon. Nice looking car and you can't pick it from a normal 7 series.

Then I saw the spec sheet. A near 6.0l V12 that gets less than 200k on hydrogen (marked as <200klm on their sheet) and 500k to 98ron petrol (duel fuel). Not real good I thought, then I saw the power specs. A measly 191kw and 360nm out of a V12, 0-60mph in the mid 9 sec zone. The thing weighs in at 2450kg. Not really impressive.

This got me to thinking that if you require such a huge engine to get about the same power as Ford do out of a base model 6 is this technology really ready for the public and will it ever be. How much better for the environment is this "hydrogen 7" if it can only get near 200k per tank of hydrogen and the rest of the time it has to run a V12 on normal petrol?

asusdragon · 24-01-2008, 08:18 PM

one day it will be feasible, just going to be a few years off, and yes alot better for the environment as the only waste is water really. the technology is only pretty new so i think once a few car manufactors get in on it, it will get better and better, lets got back what to when petrol engines first started coming out they were crap compared to todays std. what like 10kw lol as for weight the problem at the monment is storage and movement

Jeeepers · 24-01-2008, 08:29 PM

Early days of this technology, that Beamer you saw can be likened to the Model T when cars were starting to emerge for the average bloke. The biggest plus for Hydrogen is that it is the most abundant element known to us. So there should never be a shortage for this fuel.

RG · 24-01-2008, 08:34 PM

I must admit that they do sound cool when they fire up.

xtremerus · 24-01-2008, 09:01 PM

Hydrogen fuel cells producing electricity in electric cars is the only viable way of using hydrogen for transport.

Producing hydrogen gas for internal combustion engines is a waste of time and energy, as it takes more energy to produce the hydrogen than the energy that you get out of it by burning it. Unless that energy comes from nuclear, wind or solar.
Think how many wind, solar or nuclear plants would be needed to be used just to produce hydrogen only for the millions of cars in the world.
And that is without even thinking about the storage and transportation of the stuff.

asusdragon · 24-01-2008, 09:26 PM

though how money/energy is spend on drilling for oil refineing etc etc and we are soon going to have to drill deeper and deeper to get to it, so i think it would be bout par after a while, we store and transport the stuff everyday already

Jeeepers · 24-01-2008, 09:31 PM

We also have to realise that we are guaging this fuel's feasibilty on today's technology. Not so long ago solar energy was expensive to tap into. But with collector panels become smaller and more efficient, this energy is becoming cheaper and more widespread. We have to look to the horizon, not at our feet.

RG · 24-01-2008, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ORSMT

We also have to realise that we are guaging this fuel's feasibilty on today's technology. Not so long ago solar energy was expensive to tap into. But with collector panels become smaller and more efficient, this energy is becoming cheaper and more widespread. We have to look to the horizon, not at our feet.

True but when compared to a company like SAAB who have cars that run on 85% ethanol hydrogen just doesn't make too much sense to me.

gz1 · 24-01-2008, 09:48 PM

Probably non-PC but BMW (German) + Hydrogen conjures up images of the Heindelberg. I can't help it, I just get that image every time.
And by that I don't mean to imply that hydrogen won't be feasible, or that BMW don't know what they are doing, quite the opposite.

rodderz · 24-01-2008, 10:09 PM

A guy my brother works with is developing a hydrogen system for his old mazda, there is an abundance of info on it on the web as he has printed out a huge folder worth of info and diagrams.

He used PVC plumbing fittings for his chamber and bits and pieces from an old kettle, but his main problem is where to store the water.

The system isnt working for the car yet but he is running it on current setupwith water injection, saving over 25% in unleaded fuel.

Daymoe · 24-01-2008, 10:16 PM

Imagine having a smash with a full tank of Hydrogen O_o. I would have thought that mileage would have been equal if not better due to how "explosive" the fuel is?

S3SR · 24-01-2008, 10:18 PM

the hardest thing IIRC was storage of hydrogen

the advantages of course is the only bi-product is pure H20, dont know how accurate that is, could also solve our water shortage problems LOL two birds with 1 stone

im not sure how much hydrogen would cost per litre but it had better be damn cheap or come with a rebate for being environmentally friendly, otherwise im buying a diesel truck and getting my monies worth

rodderz · 25-01-2008, 01:01 AM

From memory doesnt it emit a smelly gas, as it separates the H2 and O?

theunfairadvant · 25-01-2008, 02:04 AM

It will take another 10 or 30 years before it will be feasible
for Hydrogen Technology.

XCSEDAN · 25-01-2008, 02:38 AM

the stuff is a joke, take into account the chemicals used in production and they are MUCH worse for the envirornment then a F250!!! (over 10yrs/220,000km)

ABoringUsername · 25-01-2008, 01:37 PM

In the future, in a fuel cell. I would say the water would probably be released in vapour form. cooling the exhaust to liquid would be difficult. You could use excess energy during periods of high wind/solar generation to produce it, when wind penetration gets high enough for this to be a problem.

xbgs351 · 25-01-2008, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S3SR

the hardest thing IIRC was storage of hydrogen

the advantages of course is the only bi-product is pure H20, dont know how accurate that is, could also solve our water shortage problems LOL two birds with 1 stone

im not sure how much hydrogen would cost per litre but it had better be damn cheap or come with a rebate for being environmentally friendly, otherwise im buying a diesel truck and getting my monies worth

Not so.

25-01-2008, 01:50 PM

My own little project on this subject >>hydrobattery<<

ltd · 25-01-2008, 06:33 PM

Hydrogen will NEVER be an economic option until it is made using nuclear powered stations. To make Hydrogen takes an immense amount of electricity through electrolysis and therefore is environmentally worse for pollution when coal powered stations are the supplier.

As for smashing with a hydrogen tank; think Hindenberg.

RG · 25-01-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

Hydrogen will NEVER be an economic option until it is made using nuclear powered stations. To make Hydrogen takes an immense amount of electricity through electrolysis and therefore is environmentally worse for pollution when coal powered stations are the supplier.

As for smashing with a hydrogen tank; think Hindenberg.

Had a closer look at one today and noticed a nice little warning sticker near the headlight switch. Read along the lines of "For outdoor parking only".

xtremerus · 25-01-2008, 07:25 PM

Burning hydrogen in air [as in an engine] does NOT just produce water as the ONLY bi-product. Air is about 80% Nitrogen, so the bi-product includes nitric compounds as well. If you want to drink what comes out the exhaust, go for it. The Nitric compounds out of the petrol cars now, are mainly formed from the air to burn the petrol.
Hydrogen will produce 100% water only if it is burned with 100% Oxygen. This is not feasible for cars.
Hydrogen Fuel cells is the best way to go for green cars.

Bossxr8 · 26-01-2008, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 90sFTW

Imagine having a smash with a full tank of Hydrogen O_o. I would have thought that mileage would have been equal if not better due to how "explosive" the fuel is?

BMW have tested the hydrogen tank by shooting it, trying to blow it up and by setting it on fire, and it hasn't exploded, so they are pretty confident it won't explode in a massive fireball during an accident.

Piotr · 26-01-2008, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

Hydrogen will NEVER be an economic option until it is made using nuclear powered stations. To make Hydrogen takes an immense amount of electricity through electrolysis and therefore is environmentally worse for pollution when coal powered stations are the supplier.

As for smashing with a hydrogen tank; think Hindenberg.

The Hindenberg was on fire for so long because the canvas caught on fire. The Hydrogen was burnt in a second or so

Fordoldie · 26-01-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr

The Hindenberg was on fire for so long because the canvas caught on fire. The Hydrogen was burnt in a second or so

Exactly, and the hydrogen didnt start the fire either. Its a common misconception among those who know very little about hydrogen technology - which is most people

ltd · 26-01-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

Exactly, and the hydrogen didnt start the fire either. Its a common misconception among those who know very little about hydrogen technology - which is most people

Um, I know the hindenburg didn't catch fire because of the hydrogen, but the hydrogen accelerated the fire. I also know that a hydrogen flame is clear, and burns with no smoke.
I have discovery channel too.

Daymoe · 26-01-2008, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

BMW have tested the hydrogen tank by shooting it, trying to blow it up and by setting it on fire, and it hasn't exploded, so they are pretty confident it won't explode in a massive fireball during an accident.

Oh okay, thats nice to know ;)

Whats the temperature the hydrogen is stored in the tank?

irlewy86 · 26-01-2008, 01:41 PM

I'm no man of science but I don't think a hydrogen fuel cell will carry around quite the same amount of hydrogen as a blimp anyway.

RG · 26-01-2008, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

BMW have tested the hydrogen tank by shooting it, trying to blow it up and by setting it on fire, and it hasn't exploded, so they are pretty confident it won't explode in a massive fireball during an accident.

But they don't know how to put it out in the event it does go up. If one of these cars have an electrical fault and catch fire there is a massive problem. MFB are also unsure on what to do and will have to just "let it burn".

Before anyone flames me I got this information directly from BMW and the MFB.

Bill_R · 26-01-2008, 01:44 PM

A possible alternative among many.
Watchout for Global Warming from all that water vapour though ;) (water vapour has the main warming effect).

ltd · 26-01-2008, 02:00 PM

FFS, the reference to the hindenberg was made in jest, nothing more. To this day there is still no positive cause as to what caused the fire, but newsreel footage and eyewitness reports still concur that there was a glowing in Hydrogen cell 4 before the fire. Yes I'm aware that the whole thing was painted in thermite, and yes I'm aware of the sabotage theory. If it is a little too over some of your heads then I'd suggest we move on. And no, mythbusters is not a substitute for the now NTSB.