First drive: HSV LPG is fast and economical

[csv8]

First drive: HSV LPG is fast and economical



While the thought of a performance car running on LPG seems a bit odd, you need to forget everything you know about old-school LPG conversions as they applied to taxis.

The sophistication of HSV’s LPi (liquid propane injection) means that the traditional trade-offs of LPG are simply non-existent.

Drive drove a HSV Senator prototype fitted with LPi and we’d have to say that if you weren’t told the car was running on a fuel other than ULP, you’d never pick it.

Starting is as simple as any other HSV with twist of the key cranking the 6.2-litre V8 into life.

A small button on the centre console flashes for a few seconds, indicating that the computer has started the car on petrol and is evacuating any LPG from the gas lines to avoid a backfire.

Once that's complete, the computer switches the engine from petrol to LPG in a process so seamless it's impossible to pick even on the move and under load.

From there, the same button can be used to switch back to petrol manually for what ever reason.

Under hard acceleration, the computer switches the engine back to petrol but, again, you'd never pick it.

The car's acceleration times are unaltered from the standard vehicle's because the system reverts to ULP under full throttle anyway. That means this LPG-powered HSV will blast to 100km/h in a little over five seconds.

The only real compromise comes with the space consumed by the LPG tank which lives in the boot, hard up against the rear seat.

As well as rendering the split-fold seat useless, the tank also reduces the available luggage space by quite a margin.

The solution is to opt for an LPG tank which fits in the space under the boot floor normally occupied by the spare tyre. As we’ve discovered previously in a Drive test, this system can have issues with overheating, which can noticeably increase refuelling times.

In the case of the wheel-shaped gas tank, the car carries no spare tyre and the LPG capacity is reduced from 70 litres to about 55. The smaller tank would be offered by HSV as an alternative if the vehicle reaches production, which is more than likely given the engineering efforts already made on the LPG system.

The HSV LPG system would likely not be an option on the R8 Touring station-wagon because of issues of where to locate the LPG tank.

The big benefit for some owners who travel in remote areas will be fuel range. As well as the 600 or so kilometres you could expect from a tank of petrol at cruising speeds, the car should also be able to squeeze another 400-odd kilometres out of a tank of LPG, giving a truly impressive range.

The only thing is getting used to the small red diamond on the number plate signifying the car is running on LPG. After all, the image associated with LPG will be one of the biggest hurdles with convincing would-be-HSV buyers that a gas associated with taxis can make sense in a performance car.

[mik]

sounds like a good thing, i can`t really understand why they have`nt made it straight gas though.

[ea90gl]

Not a bad effort from HSV and I'm sure like any of there/Holden's other products it will be marketed well which should increase sales. On the otherhand as mik mentioned why not run it straight LPG? Is it a design/legal/engineering issue? They do state the LPI is sophisticated if so why does the car revert back to ULP under full throttle?

[LowEL2XR8]

Exactly mik I thought if it was that good just make it straight LPG or LPi.

Gets rid of the boot space problem.

I'd like to see it on staight gas.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by LowEL2XR8

Exactly mik I thought if it was that good just make it straight LPG or LPi.

Gets rid of the boot space problem.

I'd like to see it on staight gas.

Maybe they cannot get the performance needed off LPG so that is why they left it as dual fuel.

[ADSXR8]

Originally Posted by LowEL2XR8

Exactly mik I thought if it was that good just make it straight LPG or LPi.

Gets rid of the boot space problem.

I'd like to see it on staight gas.

I'd say they didn't because in the article it refers the car on numerous occasions defering back to ULP.

1/ On start up
2/ On Load
3/ On WOT..........

All testing sounds good, but I wonder how long the engine will last thou!

[RG]

Originally Posted by flappist

Maybe they cannot get the performance needed off LPG so that is why they left it as dual fuel.

Makes sense to me. All the benefits of having a cheap cruiser on LPG with the benefits of no power loss under WOT. The only disadvantage is the loss of boot space.

It's a great idea and Ford really need to catch up on this.

[Bluehoon]

Doesn't look to be as sophisticated as what the ford solution will be.
Still needs petrol at WOT, Start up etc. Dual fuel, yuk.

I am interested to see what, if any modifications are made to the LS3 for the LPG.
Either way, whilst a step forward it won't catch ford's work on this space.

[FPV8U]

Duel Fuel system.. wow :togo:

Hardly impressed with this effort hell probably some better aftermarket alternatives out there.

[Powdered Toast Man]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Duel Fuel system.. wow :togo:

Hardly impressed with this effort hell probably some better aftermarket alternatives out there.

Exactly what I was thinking. My 3 year old SVI system works the same way.

Good that they offer it as a factory option though. And I doubt there will be much in the way of serious side effects regarding engine life.

[mcnews]

It really does seem to be a smart idea. The only way to get comparable all round performance out of LPG it seems is to dump so much of it in that it would probably cost more than filling with petrol anyway. Best of both worlds, a proper factory developed dual fuel system in my opinion is the way to go, all the old headaches of the old dual fuel mixer systems should be able to be done away with the advances in electronics and injection. If it was a better route to go dedicated then no doubt they would have done it, but instead bit the bullet and combined the benefits of both to deliver what the market wants, proper full power available when needed and part throttle benefits of gas when on the cruise.

[PoweredByCNG]

Holden have obviously gone the el cheapo route and used an inferior Liquid Injection kit (e.g. Vialle) that cannot supply enough fuel to the engine under high loads and at high speeds. They also probably don't want an LPG engine to out-power their petrol-only offering, which again is misleading and doesn't give the perception of confidence to the uninformed public. It's a shame, because this is the one and only chance they have to get things right.

Regards,
Dave

[crusher]

Really how much of a problem is it that it reverts back to ULP when at WOT??
How often are you at full WOT? Even when overtaking your generally not. And if you are you must be overtaking something bloody quick or something huge to need to use WOT in a 6.2ltr V8.....

Its a good start from HSV but there are units avaliable that are similar to this but not under a holden warrenty. Thats the upside!

[PoweredByCNG]

Trust me, you don't buy an HSV to drive sedately. That's what an Omega or SV6 is for!!

Regards,
Dave

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Holden have obviously gone the el cheapo route and used an inferior Liquid Injection kit (e.g. Vialle) that cannot supply enough fuel to the engine under high loads and at high speeds. They also probably don't want an LPG engine to out-power their petrol-only offering, which again is misleading and doesn't give the perception of confidence to the uninformed public. It's a shame, because this is the one and only chance they have to get things right.

Regards,
Dave

That must be it - I thought it odd that it would switch to ULP under load, as LPG (especially direct liquid injection - LPi) should have better characteristics under load

[Crazed]

I think they are going duel fuel because they want to be making baby steps. Maybe they think the public will warm more to the idea of a petrol and LPG HSV rather than straight LPG HSV.

Anyway HSV using LPG is great news for Ford! The more LPG is accepted as a credible fuel for high performance cars, the more Ford can effectivly market the benefits of LPG Falcons, its the halo effect.

[Mr Hardware]

Holden have obviously gone the el cheapo route and used an inferior Liquid Injection kit (e.g. Vialle)

What was their alternative in terms of LPI

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Crazed

I think they are going duel fuel because they want to be making baby steps. Maybe they think the public will warm more to the idea of a petrol and LPG HSV rather than straight LPG HSV.

Anyway HSV using LPG is great news for Ford! The more LPG is accepted as a credible fuel for high performance cars, the more Ford can effectivly market the benefits of LPG Falcons, its the halo effect.

I suspect you are right. There would be nothing worse than the first attempt to be a sales or technical disaster as there would NEVER be a second one.

e.g. XU6, Coupe4, Jackaroo etc.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Holden have obviously gone the el cheapo route and used an inferior Liquid Injection kit (e.g. Vialle) that cannot supply enough fuel to the engine under high loads and at high speeds. They also probably don't want an LPG engine to out-power their petrol-only offering, which again is misleading and doesn't give the perception of confidence to the uninformed public. It's a shame, because this is the one and only chance they have to get things right.

Regards,
Dave

exactly . in a nut shell. good post . i can add to this but there is no need , you are right on the money .

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Holden have obviously gone the el cheapo route and used an inferior Liquid Injection kit (e.g. Vialle) that cannot supply enough fuel to the engine under high loads and at high speeds.

So the system that the Ford L.I will use??

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by vztrt

So the system that the Ford L.I will use??

hmmmm mmmmmmm i'm hearing . VIALLIE . : cant have better power and economy than petrol . otherwise certain people would vanish .

[ebxr8240]

There media spin at it again in being in the news..

[prydey]

Originally Posted by flappist

Maybe they cannot get the performance needed off LPG so that is why they left it as dual fuel.

the guys at ALPGW are getting power increases with the JTG Liquid kit. esp with the 6.2L.

[Jastel]

Another reason for dual fuel is to appeal to country people
Not everyone lives 5 mins from an LPG service station or a LPG mechanic when things go wrong

Ford should take note of this

[ratter]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

What was their alternative in terms of LPI

They had a car at ALPGWH a while back as a development car, it ran on LPG under full throttle and made more power on gas than it did on petrol, but they have gone for what looks like an inferior product to keep their cost down.
Aparantly one of the big knobs at HSV prefers to use this deveolpment car as his own form of transport.

[blownba]

Thats what I heard to. he drives the JTG car cause it goes ALOT harder that premium unleaded. As you would know Ratter.

It is THE SAME system as Ford will be using.
Vialle LPI with Orbital engines (the bought Boral) doing some tweeks aparantly.

They cannot get good performance out of their LI system thats why it swaps to petrol.
And if they used JTG and it put their petrol cars to shame by giving up to 15 RWKW more than premium unleaded with a mountain more torque, it would not make them look to good would it???
this way the gas cars will always only ever have the same power as their petrol cars.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by blownba

And if they used JTG and it put their petrol cars to shame by giving up to 15 RWKW more than premium unleaded with a mountain more torque, it would not make them look to good would it???.

Of course it would make them look good, and they would sell shedloads more cars....

[flappist]

Originally Posted by blownba

Thats what I heard to. he drives the JTG car cause it goes ALOT harder that premium unleaded. As you would know Ratter.

It is THE SAME system as Ford will be using.
Vialle LPI with Orbital engines (the bought Boral) doing some tweeks aparantly.

They cannot get good performance out of their LI system thats why it swaps to petrol.
And if they used JTG and it put their petrol cars to shame by giving up to 15 RWKW more than premium unleaded with a mountain more torque, it would not make them look to good would it???
this way the gas cars will always only ever have the same power as their petrol cars.

Going faster and harder does not always lead to instant success. If it did then most FPVs would be turbo 6s not V8s.
Emotion is the major force behind a HSV or FPV purchase and there is a lot of tradition and perception to overcome before a deviation from the norm will be accepted by the general community.

But the proof will be in the pudding. It will sell or it will not. Time will tell as usual.

[PepeLePew]

Ok, given my limited understanding of the LPI stuff, and its relative apparent simplicity, what are the likely reasons for the switch to petrol? Injector size must theoretically be correct yes to map to the stock petrol injectors assuming its running one tune for both fuels? So it just cant get enough LPG (pressure/volume) to the engine? Or concerns about the valve seats for longevity given warranty or some such? Or IS it just to keep the LPG car's max kw and Nm numbers below the petrol version?

Whats the max grunt thats been seen out of the JTG system without 'doing a Worm' and running dual pumps etc out of curiosity?

I'm curious as to what can be inferior about the Vialle product other than sizing of components (pump, lines, injectors etc)

The above isnt an attack on JTG or pro-Vialle or whatever, just a bunch of questions generated by this odd switch to petrol!

[gregski]

oh yea ya