Why governments are such a mess

[flappist]

Straight off the news today (assuming it is not a beat up)

QLD Government has discovered they have overpaid hospital staff $27,000,000 over the last 5 years.
They have recovered $22,000,000 but $5,000,000 is still outstanding.

The incredibly clever solution by these fiscal geniuses........

Rather than just sit back, let the overworked hospital staff have a few extra bucks and go with the flow they are spending $40,000,000 on a new payroll system so the pays will be correct.

$5M over 5 years is $1M per year so these morons will be square in the year 2049.

Bligh MUST GO

[burnz]

what annoys me is that lotterys (NSW) was for extra funding for hospital, now consolidated revenue.

was the money paid in wages, or funding??
alltho both are under paid.

[Yellow_Festiva]

How many tens of millions (90?) were 'invested' in a basic travel 'smart' card for NSW...

Now the government is trying to sue as the company failed to deliver... That money will never be seen again.

What a bloody shameful waste. It could have been done at a fraction of the price from several companies around the world modelled on tried and tested systems.

We flew over 100 deligates to Denmark for 'talks'... At what cost? My school has used video conferencing.... of course you can't a picture shaking hands with other big wigs unless you're there I guess.

Wonder how many solar panels that would have bought?

[Falcon_XR6]

Anna Bligh must go indeed!

[trippytaka]

Originally Posted by burnz

what annoys me is that lotterys (NSW) was for extra funding for hospital, now consolidated revenue.

was the money paid in wages, or funding??
alltho both are under paid.

And also they just sold them off!

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

How many tens of millions (90?) were 'invested' in a basic travel 'smart' card for NSW...

Now the government is trying to sue as the company failed to deliver... That money will never be seen again.

What a bloody shameful waste. It could have been done at a fraction of the price from several companies around the world modelled on tried and tested systems.

We flew over 100 deligates to Denmark for 'talks'... At what cost? My school has used video conferencing.... of course you can't a picture shaking hands with other big wigs unless you're there I guess.

Wonder how many solar panels that would have bought?

Thats not bad try living in Vic - our government has spent a lot more on our system (myki which is hundreds of millions over budget and running two years late) When they held a media conference to provide the public with a general update the unit fell apart.

[trippytaka]

At it's core, governments are greedy and selfish. No one wants to do something that will change the state or the nation for the better because it will cost money, upset unions, or alienate their electorates when the opposition cries foul.

Secondly, I believe it's a symptom of public apathy towards the political process. People complain about things that affect them, but then don't do a thing to change it.

Take the last NSW state elections... I would have had my house on Labor losing. But then, after all the stuff ups, in they go for another term. FFS! If Labor wins again, I am moving to Melbourne. Dead serious, NSW has become a fuc**ng joke.

This apathy can even be seen in our press... people just want to read about celebrities and see pictures of cute dogs, so out go all the political correspondents.

I am sick and tired of it. When was the last time anyone wrote to their member of parliament? This year I have sent 10 emails this year... and while my voice alone is ****ing in the wind, if everyone aired their grievance we might see some sort of reaction.

It would be nice if Australians would get off their **** and vote for change, or even march on parliament to demand change.

[FalconXR6]

Originally Posted by trippytaka

At it's core, governments are greedy and selfish. No one wants to do something that will change the state or the nation for the better because it will cost money, upset unions, or alienate their electorates when the opposition cries foul.

Secondly, I believe it's a symptom of public apathy towards the political process. People complain about things that affect them, but then don't do a thing to change it.

Take the last NSW state elections... I would have had my house on Labor losing. But then, after all the stuff ups, in they go for another term. FFS! If Labor wins again, I am moving to Melbourne. Dead serious, NSW has become a fuc**ng joke.

This apathy can even be seen in our press... people just want to read about celebrities and see pictures of cute dogs, so out go all the political correspondents.

I am sick and tired of it. When was the last time anyone wrote to their member of parliament? This year I have sent 10 emails this year... and while my voice alone is ****ing in the wind, if everyone aired their grievance we might see some sort of reaction.

It would be nice if Australians would get off their **** and vote for change, or even march on parliament to demand change.

"This apathy can even be seen in our press... people just want to read about celebrities and see pictures of cute dogs, so out go all the political correspondents. "

Effing GOLD !!!

Top post !!!

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by flappist

.

The incredibly clever solution by these fiscal geniuses........

Rather than just sit back, let the overworked hospital staff have a few extra bucks and go with the flow they are spending $40,000,000 on a new payroll system so the pays will be correct.

$5M over 5 years is $1M per year so these morons will be square in the year 2049.

Bligh MUST GO

The new payroll system will correct the previous mistakes and prevent further mistakes from happening. Clearly the payroll system is failing and needs replacing and given the size of Queensland Health its little suprise its costing $40m. They failed to mention that another payroll failure recently left support staff underpaid for almost 2 years.

Less beaurcats is a far more important than the talking head at the despatch box.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

The new payroll system will correct the previous mistakes and prevent further mistakes from happening. Clearly the payroll system is failing and needs replacing and given the size of Queensland Health its little suprise its costing $40m. They failed to mention that another payroll failure recently left support staff underpaid for almost 2 years.

Less beaurcats is a far more important than the talking head at the despatch box.

Whenever quoted figures on Government spending I am always surprised - my own personal beleif is that it wouldn't cost $40 million in the private sector so why does it cost so much in the public sector. To put it in perspective you could pay 100 people $50,000 pa ea for 8 years. Surely it doesnt take 100 people working full time to administer Queenslands Health payroll system.

[SSD-85]

This really is pathetic. I don't even know if I can recall a government has done anything in the publics' better interests. And another thing I can't figure out is how it is costing them 40 million dollars to do it. Other government departments have adjusted their payrolls countless times and it's cost nowhere near as much as that. As if the billions wasted on the Traveston Dam wasnt enough.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by SB076

Whenever quoted figures on Government spending I am always surprised - my own personal beleif is that it wouldn't cost $40 million in the private sector so why does it cost so much in the public sector.

Can't comment on whether $40M is correct but costs between private and public would be comparable. The govt would get big discounts on licenses and servers compared to a medium sized business.

A government department or a large business would follow a proper project methodology which adds expense.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by cs123

Can't comment on whether $40M is correct but costs between private and public would be comparable. The govt would get big discounts on licenses and servers compared to a medium sized business.

A government department or a large business would follow a proper project methodology which adds expense.

Pretty simple really, when someone spends their own money (private sector) they make sure they get the best deal at the lowest price, and make sure the spend is justified, when someone spends someone else's money (Govt) they don't worry as much, and employ dozens and dozens of people to set up committees and dept's to oversee everything except prices, because hey, its not my money and the "bucket" is never empty..

[Streets]

Originally Posted by SB076

Whenever quoted figures on Government spending I am always surprised - my own personal beleif is that it wouldn't cost $40 million in the private sector so why does it cost so much in the public sector.

Originally Posted by SB076

my own personal beleif

There's your problem right there.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

when someone spends someone else's money (Govt) they don't worry as much, and employ dozens and dozens of people to set up committees and dept's to oversee everything except prices, because hey, its not my money and the "bucket" is never empty..

You don't know much about how the government works, do you.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Pretty simple really, when someone spends their own money (private sector) they make sure they get the best deal at the lowest price, and make sure the spend is justified, when someone spends someone else's money (Govt) they don't worry as much, and employ dozens and dozens of people to set up committees and dept's to oversee everything except prices, because hey, its not my money and the "bucket" is never empty..

No, that is wrong. Large business and govt departments operate in a similar way. I've worked on large project in the private and govt sector and it is pretty much the same. The concept that government departments have a bottomless pit of money is nonsense, they play hardball too.

[fangq]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

The new payroll system will correct the previous mistakes and prevent further mistakes from happening. Clearly the payroll system is failing and needs replacing and given the size of Queensland Health its little suprise its costing $40m. They failed to mention that another payroll failure recently left support staff underpaid for almost 2 years.

Less beaurcats is a far more important than the talking head at the despatch box.

Almost as good as the Q Prime software that QPS uses. Talking to a good mate who works in traffic branch, and he opines that the boys in blue are less than enamoured of the " new" system.
Steve

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by cs123

No, that is wrong. Large business and govt departments operate in a similar way. I've worked on large project in the private and govt sector and it is pretty much the same. The concept that government departments have a bottomless pit of money is nonsense, they play hardball too.

Forgive my skepticism but ive seen first hand they ridiculous way govts splash money around...

[cs123]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Forgive my skepticism but ive seen first hand they ridiculous way govts splash money around...

Agree. They may very well put in roundabout for the hell of it. But when it comes to running IT projects all large organisations, govt and private, operate in a similar fashion.

[MITCHAY]

The thing with systems is that often it is cheaper to introduce a new system, than to work on the old. This goes for private and public sector.

I do agree though with what Flap is saying with regards to overworked staff being overpaid a few bucks and let it be but at sometime or another if the system is stuffed it will need to be repaired/upgraded or replaced.

You have to wonder how such an error was not discovered over 5yrs though, it's quite a considerable amount of money.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by cs123

Agree. They may very well put in roundabout for the hell of it. But when it comes to running IT projects all large organisations, govt and private, operate in a similar fashion.

It frustrates me no end to see the ridiculous amount of money govt projects cost because of bureaucracy, red tape, inefficient management, "nest building", "personal stamping", over engineering, grandiose designing etc etc...
Ive argued with architects working on Govt projects because their design was going to cost twice as much as using a different material that would have achieved the same result at hlaf the cost and the architects response was "i designed it that way, the dept has signed off on my design, its been budgeted for, so just use what's specified as long as it doesnt go over".... :

[Mark^^]

This seems very relevant:

If Noah Lived In Australia Today

And the Lord spoke to Noah and said, "In one year, I am going to make it rain and cover the whole earth with water until all flesh is destroyed.
But I want you to save the righteous people and two of every kind of living things on the earth.
Therefore, I am commanding you to build an Ark."

In a flash of lightening, God delivered the specifications for an Ark.
In fear and trembling, Noah took the plans and agreed to build the Ark.

"Remember" said the Lord, "You must complete the Ark and bring everything aboard in one year."

Exactly one year later, fierce storm clouds covered the earth and all the seas of the earth went into a tumult.
The Lord saw Noah was sitting in his front yard weeping.
"Noah," He shouted, "Where is the Ark?"
"Lord, please forgive me!" cried Noah.
"I did my best, but there were big problems.
First, I had to get a permit for construction
and your plans did not comply with the codes.
I had to hire an engineering firm and redraw the plans.
Then I got into a fight with Occupational Health & Safety commission over whether or not the Ark needed a fire sprinkler system and flotation devices.
Then my neighbour objected, claiming I was violating zoning ordinances by building the Ark in my front yard, so I had to lodge a Rezoning Application with Brisbane City Council & it is now with the Land & Environment Court.

I had problems getting enough wood for the Ark, because there was a ban on cutting trees to protect the Kookaburra.
I finally convinced the Dept of Conservation & Land Management that I needed the wood to save the kookaburras.
However, National Parks & Wildlife won't let me catch any kookaburras, so, no kookaburras.

The carpenters formed a union and went out on strike.
I had to negotiate a settlement with the Dept of Industrial Relations before anyone would pick up a saw or a hammer.
Now I have 16 carpenters on the Ark, but still no kookaburras.

When I started rounding up the other animals, I got sued by RSPCA.
They objected to me only taking two of each kind aboard.
Just when I got the suit dismissed, the EPA notified me that I could not complete the Ark without filing an environmental impact statement on your proposed flood.
They didn't take very kindly to the idea that they had no jurisdiction over the conduct of the Creator of the universe.
Then the Dept of Land and Water Conservation demanded a map of the proposed new flood plain.
I sent them a complete set of UBDs & Gregory's.
Right now, I am trying to resolve a complaint filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission that I am practicing discrimination
by not taking godless, unbelieving people aboard!
The Australian Tax Office has seized my assets, claiming that I'm building the Ark in preparation to flee the country to avoid paying taxes.

I also have to wait for registration of my ABN for the GST.

I just got a notice from the Waterways Authority that I owe them some kind of user tax and failed to register the Ark as a "recreational water craft."

I also need a Boat Drivers License but they are debating about how to classify the craft.
I am getting continual visits from Green Peace, RSPCA, Work Cover, Sheriff's Office & numerous other government departments.
Finally, the Australian Council for Civil Liberties got the courts to issue an injunction against further construction of the Ark, saying that since God is flooding the earth, it is a religious event and therefore unconstitutional.
I really don't think I can finish the Ark for another 5 or 6 years!" Noah wailed.

The sky began to clear, the sun began to shine and the seas began to calm.
A rainbow arched across the sky.
Noah looked up hopefully.

"You mean you are not going to destroy the earth Lord?"

"No," said the Lord sadly.
"I don't have to.
The Government bureaucracy already has."


(stolen from Lyonsy on another Ford Forum)

[4Vman]

Bingo Mark^^, spot on!

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by SB076

Thats not bad try living in Vic - our government has spent a lot more on our system (myki which is hundreds of millions over budget and running two years late) When they held a media conference to provide the public with a general update the unit fell apart.

They could have bought a system IN USE overseas that actually works, but decided to waste billions on a system that doesn't. The first time they brought out ticket machines - it was painfully obvious to the average person that they are vulnerable to breakdowns and vandalism - and the result is fare evasion and people being unable to buy a ticket. The Myki system doesn't need vandals - they don't work to begin with.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by pauljh74

They could have bought a system IN USE overseas that actually works, but decided to waste billions on a system that doesn't. The first time they brought out ticket machines - it was painfully obvious to the average person that they are vulnerable to breakdowns and vandalism - and the result is fare evasion and people being unable to buy a ticket. The Myki system doesn't need vandals - they don't work to begin with.

The OS systems work so well because they have greatly simplified how ticket costs are calculated.

We have so many combinations of situations / discounts / group pricing / time pricing / peak / off peak etc it made a smart travel card impossible to easily integrate into the status quo we now have become used to.

Eg, in Korea you CANNOT buy a return train ticket. Prices are the same no matter when. Pensioners travel free. The price is the same every day, any time.

Discounts for people who go from bus to train apply and they are easy to understand. Seamless, easy to use, easy to recharge, and it works.

If the applicable government minister had the guts to totally overhaul and simplify the ticketing system for transport a smart travel card would be much closer to a reality.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Streets

There's your problem right there.

Yep my own personal beliefs that comes from working in the private sector and comparing notes with those that work in the public sector - I have friends that have worked in both and their personal beliefs (from what they have shared are similiar to mine) There appears to be a lot more waste, red tape in the public sector. I am happy to hear otherwise though.

[MYVYSS]

They are putting in SAP more than likely, as the QLD Gov love SAP....lol, but anyway as a person who implements this technology for a living, I am sorry but most of you would not have a CLUE on what it takes and what is required in order to correctly pay some one, everyone THINKS they understand the inner working of payroll when in reality you would be lucky to understand less than 3 percent of what actually happen, its a complexed and integrated system they are trying to implement that will not only work for today but allow the businesses its being used for to grow and more importantly accept and implement change.

And if it is SAP the 40 Million price tag is actually pretty cheap.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MYVYSS

They are putting in SAP more than likely, as the QLD Gov love SAP....lol, but anyway as a person who implements this technology for a living, I am sorry but most of you would not have a CLUE on what it takes and what is required in order to correctly pay some one, everyone THINKS they understand the inner working of payroll when in reality you would be lucky to understand less than 3 percent of what actually happen, its a complexed and integrated system they are trying to implement that will not only work for today but allow the businesses its being used for to grow and more importantly accept and implement change.

And if it is SAP the 40 Million price tag is actually pretty cheap.

Having actually written TWO widely used payrolls, one agricultural the other medical/hospital over the past 25 years I have a reasonable idea what is required.

Governments always over complicate everything.

If a simple system works then you do not need dozens of layers of management in big shiny buildings to oversee it do you.....

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

Governments always over complicate everything.

If a simple system works then you do not need dozens of layers of management in big shiny buildings to oversee it do you.....

You do if you've got a budget allocation that you haven't spent yet..

Ever noticed councils doing a mad rush of public works in june..?

[olfella]

Originally Posted by flappist

Having actually written TWO widely used payrolls, one agricultural the other medical/hospital over the past 25 years I have a reasonable idea what is required.

Governments always over complicate everything.

If a simple system works then you do not need dozens of layers of management in big shiny buildings to oversee it do you.....

My experience with SAP and other 'pay' systems used by gov is that they try to intergrate everything into the one system. Like finance and payroll. Then they have to 'individualise' it to suit certain Certified Agreements that change pay and conditions every few years. Each fed department goes through the same stuff year after year and SAP etc rub their hands together. Just ask Defence how theirs is going after a lot more millions that what Qld are spending.

On another tack, I reckon Governments are a lost cause these days, all we need is decent contract managers.

[MYVYSS]

Originally Posted by flappist

Having actually written TWO widely used payrolls, one agricultural the other medical/hospital over the past 25 years I have a reasonable idea what is required.

Governments always over complicate everything.

If a simple system works then you do not need dozens of layers of management in big shiny buildings to oversee it do you.....

lol @ Simple system working, Not trying to undermine what you have written or done, but what size are we talking, how many EBA's, Enterprise Agreements and private pay scales where used by these business's, I was one of the team that built and ran Mayne's SAP HR/Payroll, over 200 company codes, 55000 employees literally 100's of awards, 1200+ allowances, 700 odd deductions, thousands of cost centres and profit centres, running Nursing, Radiology, Imaging, Transport and Logistics, Armaguard, most running 24/7 shifts, tell me a simple solution where employees can just record their start and end time and the system then automatically calculates all shift, roster and PH penalties regardless of what capital city or provincal town you are working in, also taking into account where you start on a non public holiday and finish on the public holiday (spanning midnight) add to that 25+ different annual leave accruals........simple PLEASE nothing is simple.

If you want someone to blame for having to spend this sort of coin on Payroll systems, its simple, blame the UNIONS!!!!! they are the ones that come up with almost no workable times and or changes in order for employees to get an extra 40 dollars a year, this makes more work for everyone else, and justifies the unions being able to extort fee's from Mr/Mrs Joe Average wages...