Ford CEO - Falcon will stay! FWD or RWD?

[XR_Strider_GuY]

Firstly, I have yet to see a big front wheel drive get the thumbs up for that perfect balanced feel. I don't think its a fair arguement to compare an Integra sized car to a Falcon. 1200-1300kg odd car v 1700-1800kg car and not to mention the wheel base.

I have lived in the US and take it from me, I had a Chevy Impala SS with a 228kw 5.3L V8, while it was fun on the straight but dynamically this car is fatally flawed.

My 2c's.
My idea for Ford Australia is to adopt the idea like Aston Martin with their VH architecture where 2 different size chassis can be made on the same production line. Therefore they can adjust output accordingly to sales demand. This will cater for a front/drive Mondeo-Falcon size car to replace the bread n butter base range. The other bigger chassis they can develop and keep the models XR6/XR8 and GT/GTP etc perhaps raise the price abit to keep it viable and promote strong resale for enthusiasts.

[Rev28K]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Because it's a lighter and more nimble car. It won't keep up to an XR6T on a straight because you'd be a lunatic to run the amount of power it would need to do so through the front wheels.

FWD hatches and smaller sedans handle quite well, change an XR6T from RWD to FWD and I think you'll get to the crux of 'FWD can't handle, can't corner' of those being specific to the Falcon platform.

Yup, I agree with that. It's also 102kw at the wheels and only 1800cc. I'm just trying to disprove the "ALL FWD don't handle" zealots.

And as I said for a large tow car I'll be heading for RWD. But this is a once in a long time situation for me. I’ll probably keep the car for a long time, look after it and won’t be upgrading in 3-4 years like some people. How many people have this set of circumstances? If I wasn’t in this situation a Falcon wouldn’t get a look in as my next car.

[Rev28K]

Originally Posted by XR_Strider_GuY

Firstly, I have yet to see a big front wheel drive get the thumbs up for that perfect balanced feel..

Me either

Originally Posted by XR_Strider_GuY

I have lived in the US and take it from me, I had a Chevy Impala SS with a 228kw 5.3L V8, while it was fun on the straight but dynamically this car is fatally flawed.

From what I've seen of them I believe you, these weren't Chevy's engineering high point. Maybe they shoud've resurrected the Toronado nameplate?

[4Vman]

Ive driven a TRD Aurion, a car that by design is meant to be a large performance vehicle.... ANYONE who claims they've removed torque steer or the ill effects of FWD is kidding themselves.... This car still feels like its a front wheel drive and while it feels more refined it still exhibits all the nasties of FWD...

[tranquilized]

Heres something that no one has mentioned yet - styling.
The drivetrain determines many hard points in a cars design. Front wheel drive dictates the engine be placed over the front wheels which brings with certain compromises, such as a larger front overhang.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but what I find essential for a car to look good is a long bonnet, short front overhang, and some space between the front door and front wheelarch. Look at most BMW's, the VE, and of course, older Falcons. Have a look at the profile of a Camry, theres only about an inch between the front door & arch, and I dont know about anyone else here, but I think it looks.... ordinary, to say the least.
As always there are exceptions to this rule, such as certain cab-forward designed, mid engined Italian exotica...

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ive driven a TRD Aurion, a car that by design is meant to be a large performance vehicle.... ANYONE who claims they've removed torque steer or the ill effects of FWD is kidding themselves.... This car still feels like its a front wheel drive and while it feels more refined it still exhibits all the nasties of FWD...

However less than 1% of all TRD Aurions will ever find themselves on the race track or driven in a matter where you would loathe the FWD setup. Its simply an attemp buy Toyota to stem a small but steady stream of buyers away from the premium Ford/Holden products which really are a class above a Camry with a leather wrap steering wheel.

Only 20% of the market is private and Ford is going to bleed fleet sales very soon if they don't drastically change Falcon driveline (mostly fuel ecconomy). So even if they lost every single private sale from the switch they still stand to make money. If people really care so much about RWD Falcon why don't they put their money where their mouth is and buy FG. :

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Rev28K

Yup, I agree with that. It's also 102kw at the wheels and only 1800cc. I'm just trying to disprove the "ALL FWD don't handle" zealots.

No-one said that, fact is that some FWD cars handle very nicely.... they'd handle a whole lot better if they were RWD which is the point.

[magoo66]

Originally Posted by Big Mike

"unique" RWD = no one else has it, wants it, buys it, sure some of us are used to it and love it, but WHY aren't Falcons selling? Despite what you fans want and pine for, keep in mind the reasons this style of vehicle is failing in the marketplace; and take a look at the cars that outsell it.

Simple argument really - why shouldn't a company build cars with less cost, less vibration, more safety, better economy, better control and driveability, easier maintenance and less moving parts? Tell me why Ford should stay in the dark ages in the face of technology and refinement in everything around? 20 Years ago a Falcon owner wouldn't buy a Camry, but that world has turned and the companies that fail to evolve are being left behind.

It's just perception, Ford need to do some better marketing and advertising. FWD does not necessarily equate to less cost, less vibration, more safety and better economy. It certainly does not equate to better control and driveability, easier maintenance and less moving parts.

FWD is great in small low powered cars, where space is at a premium, which is where it should have stayed. FWD has been around since the late 1890's but it was not successful until 1959, when the Mini (being the first transverse FWD) was introduced. BMC's reasons for having a transverse FWD had nothing to do with less cost, less vibration, more safety, better economy, better control and driveability, easier maintenance or less moving parts, it was to save space. By using a transverse FWD in the Mini they could use 80% of the floorpan for the passenger and luggage compartments instead of 60%.

FWD is better is just a myth perpetuated so well by Japanese car manufacturers and their advertising companies and we all just swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Being the sheep that we are, we now think that FWD is better and want it in everything.

If FWD is better than RWD then why don't F1 and all the high end supercars use it? Simple argument really, they don't use FWD, because RWD and AWD are better. :monkes:

[magoo66]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

The Falcon in most guises IS NOT a performance thoroughbred. It is a family chariot / taxi. Primary role: To get 4-5 large people around in decent comfort with decent luggage space.... and at a decent price.

True but Joe Average who can't afford to by a GT or an F6 can still have a little bit of that dream by buying an XT. The proof is all the 6cyl Comode Execs you see on the road with ridiculous body kits and an exhaust the size of a steel garbage can, they only do it because they can't afford a Clubbie.

[Ghiadude]

I have an idea... why not make a RWD east west engined large car??? who says the engine has to be at the front. The BEST handling cars inthe world are mid/rear engined. Lets face it if we are going to talk about losing our precious handling then why not??? rear engined FTW!

[Scott]

^^ I'll take one... mid-mount for me though ;)

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

oh come on.. how many people tow boats and how often?
yes some, but enough to justify designing and building a car.

SO far I have only seen 3 arguements why falcom should stay RWD
1- Towing a boat, caravan or heavy trailer (even a corolla can pull a small box trailer to the tip)
I would say most people who regularly tow heavy and buy new cars are buying Prado, Pajero, Territory, or X5 or similar anyhow. OK SOME are using new Falcodores, but not many. (we are only talking about new car sales here, not interested in your dads 12 year old 2nd hand futura, that buy didnt make ford money)

2- Hi performance.
Mondeo XR5 FWD great to drive. FWD can be engineered to go great these days. OR why not AWD for the hipo version (Get a few of those towing people too)

3- Tradies utes
IF falc goes FWD not build a territory based ute then? Can be RWD .. (and get a few more towies again).

I think 90% of average car buyers dont give a toss if its fwd or rwd, so long as it is priced ok, goes ok and has ok resale. And i think Ford want to sell to those 90, not just to the 10% niche group. Falcon is mainstream car, not a niche car.

The only thing iwoud say is, if it DOES go FWD, they shouldnt call it Falcon.
Falcon is seen in aussie eyes as locally built, 6 or v8, RWD, 5 seater (or ute/van). If its not that.. then its not falcon.. (coz it aint a meat pie if its got chicken in it...its somethin else)

Exactly!
Why would you even consider towing a 2t boat with an Aurion is beyond me, horses for courses.
If i were a Toyota man i would elect for an SR5 Hilux D/cab for that job, or a Terri if thats your thing, average joe with a 15ft tinnie/ 16ft van etc. will not need a rwd 200+kw falcodore, and thats where it's at now.
Tradies will have to opt for a rebadged Mazda commercial
Ford global is on it's knees and providing a rwd large car to suit 3000 customers a month aint high on their agenda.
I'd like to think any Ford Aus built product could survive in the current market on quality alone, not on it's drivetrain configuration.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

oh come on.. how many people tow boats and how often?
yes some, but enough to justify designing and building a car.

SO far I have only seen 3 arguements why falcom should stay RWD
1- Towing a boat, caravan or heavy trailer (even a corolla can pull a small box trailer to the tip)
I would say most people who regularly tow heavy and buy new cars are buying Prado, Pajero, Territory, or X5 or similar anyhow. OK SOME are using new Falcodores, but not many. (we are only talking about new car sales here, not interested in your dads 12 year old 2nd hand futura, that buy didnt make ford money)

2- Hi performance.
Mondeo XR5 FWD great to drive. FWD can be engineered to go great these days. OR why not AWD for the hipo version (Get a few of those towing people too)

3- Tradies utes
IF falc goes FWD not build a territory based ute then? Can be RWD .. (and get a few more towies again).

I think 90% of average car buyers dont give a toss if its fwd or rwd, so long as it is priced ok, goes ok and has ok resale. And i think Ford want to sell to those 90, not just to the 10% niche group. Falcon is mainstream car, not a niche car.

The only thing iwoud say is, if it DOES go FWD, they shouldnt call it Falcon.
Falcon is seen in aussie eyes as locally built, 6 or v8, RWD, 5 seater (or ute/van). If its not that.. then its not falcon.. (coz it aint a meat pie if its got chicken in it...its somethin else)

1) The whole premise of selling these cars is on the basis of "what if"

One day I might "want to" so therefore I "need to" have the flexibility to do so. That's why SUVs became so popular in the first place, not because they are actually required.

Now people are doing more with less and finding less does an adequate job at it, not better, but tolerable. That’s a condition called fickleness and it’s like a light switch.

2) Front wheel drive can only be used in limited performance applications. As big as the mondeo is it’s still not Falcon size and it’s certainly not Commodore size.

There is a limit to how much a driving set of wheels that are required to steer can handle successfully over a wide range of condition. Power on and braking are adversely compromised by the one constant that FWD relinquishes.

Identical cars fitted with each type of drive system will always favour the RWD. It’s the vastly superior drive system but if compromise is what is required FWD does a pretty good imitation.

3) No tradie that is buying a Holden or Falcon Ute is going to buy a Mazda. If they were or could they would be doing it right now. The loss of the Ute will be apportioned in preferences to Holden first, second and third then maybe the smaller less comfortable alternatives.

AWD costs more to run, ruins the whole lets go front wheel drive to become more profitable if you have to counter to AWD to sell the bloody things.

You are probably right with 90% don’t actually care. Our little poll says the opposite but that would be expected of a forum like this.

I keep coming back to the same point. The ONLY way Ford will be able to swap the Falcon to front wheel drive successfully is if Holden drop RWD. Any other reasoning is irrelevant and pointless because you have to get over this obstacle first.

If the main competition, if the volume competition, stays with a fundament so steeped in tradition and values in this country they will dominate the segment via exclusivity until there is absolutely no make for that size transport.

Everyone is saying that won’t happen. Shrink yes disappear no.


Why there is even talk about this is somewhat amusing given the Mondeo can’t get close to Falcon volumes let alone Commodore. If Ford globally decides against RWD the only decision here in Australia is how do we sell mondeo because introducing another blue oval based on the same limit range of dynamics simply won't work. How can it?

What can a FWD Falcon offer that’s not currently in Mondeo and continuing to underwhelm on the sales chart?

[AWD Chaser]

But in saying that, if Holden did drop RWD, would that not be a huge reason for Ford to keep it, as we would then have quite a few converts.... ie, more sales.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by HSE2

3) No tradie that is buying a Holden or Falcon Ute is going to buy a Mazda. If they were or could they would be doing it right now. The loss of the Ute will be apportioned in preferences to Holden first, second and third then maybe the smaller less comfortable alternatives.

From what i can tell the main argument in keeping the rwd platform is
1 to provide a basis for FPV to tune from.
2 to provide a rwd platform for tradies.
3 to provide a rwd to 10% of sales who will stamp their feet before driving a big 6 fwd.

My 2c worth
1 Ford have never been overly interested in performance products which is why we always whinge about the other mob pushing the boundaries ie. W427. All we get is whispers of V10 HO's
2 If the Falcon ute were not an option, how many tradies would opt for a Holden ute with next to no load/towing capacity? not many and so they'll bank on a good percentage buying the rebadged Mazda cos atleast its a Ford.
3 I think that speaks for itself.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Kia Chaser

But in saying that, if Holden did drop RWD, would that not be a huge reason for Ford to keep it, as we would then have quite a few converts.... ie, more sales.

I am sceptical of these claims that front wheel drive cars are cheaper to run. It’s about moving mass and efficiency in doing so. A smaller FWD car will be cheaper to run than a large RWD car but cars of equal mass??

I am also sceptical that a FWD falcon will be manufactured in this country. To make sure our manufacturing base is maintained I suspect both Ford and Holden have to go down the same route. One changing direction could very well cause the other to be less viable.
Our market and its desire will have no influence on a decision.
What will is if Ford bother to import a large RWD sedan to Australia. That will be the only question for Ford Aust. Holden marketing will take care of the rest.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

From what i can tell the main argument in keeping the rwd platform is
1 to provide a basis for FPV to tune from.
2 to provide a rwd platform for tradies.
3 to provide a rwd to 10% of sales who will stamp their feet before driving a big 6 fwd.

No it’s much simpler than that. There are no reasons based in Australia to go one way or the other.

People seem to think Ford is going to pay for a retool to build a specific global FWD product for such a small volume.

It won’t happen. If they stay RWD it might but perhaps still unlikely. Then there is the dollar value and so on.

Here is how it works. HSV and Holden made a claim that they are sticking with V8s. Two weeks later FPV concede HSVs commitment essentially dictates similar direction. It’s the easiest way to provide a viable consumer product that in theory provides competent competition. It s certainly the easiest option and requires less effective marketing, a known strong suit at Ford.

If Ford of America decides global FWD is the way of the future the only decision for Ford of Aust is if they can market a FWD Falcon against a rear wheel drive Holden. Not in a month of Sundays could they answer that question with any degree of confidence based on what has transpired so far.

They left Holden with the LWD market and the most likely outcome is that they will retire from the large segment as well to concentrate on the smaller to medium car segments.

Holden is in a much stronger position to retain local manufacturing of a global platform by virtue of the existing export infrastructure. An imported FWD Falcon against a locally built rear wheel drive Holden, Hmmmmm

As far as fleets go they have a better chance of pushing a diesel Mondeo wagon. For our market, if the decision comes down on the side of FWD there are basically no arguments to be made to continue with the Falcon model at all.

I can see the Holden marketing machine at work right now.

If your point about the Holden Ute was accurate it wouldn’t be selling now. There is no doubt Holden will enjoy increased volume from Ford’s defection because clearly load rating isn't that strong a reference mark even with the Ford utility. Watch a Ute ad these days and its likely to share about 50% billing with either refinement or comfort something the smaller harsher options don't supply. The serious load requirements will head the way of the imports but by and large that already happens now.

Your three points aren't a reason to retain or abolish RWD.
They will be consideration for our managers to come up with marketing and products to try and limit the damage in those segments. In some cases there won’t be a viable alternative against a rear wheel drive competitive option. That is the bottom line. Ford's reducing large car market share will decline even further under a FWD platform. Even the most optimistic of punters won’t argue against that certainty.

There hasn't been one comment on this forum that argues for increased market share under this direction. Every comment points to a reduction in either a trade segment, a performance segment or so on. Ford has viable fleet options now on a global fwd platform. All bases are loaded and they all point to reduced market share of a reduced market share. FWD will end local large car production for the blue oval, unless every competitor offers the same situation.

[XRated]

Originally Posted by GTP006

No-one said that, fact is that some FWD cars handle very nicely.... they'd handle a whole lot better if they were RWD which is the point.

Well I must be confused because you quoted and said the following:

Originally Posted by GTP006

No they can't.

The reason there is a perception that FWD cars can handle is that 90% of FWD cars are small & light. Being FWD simply limits a small & light cars real potential.

Pound for Pound, make those same cars RWD and see the improvement.

Did you mean "FWD can't be made to handle" like quoted, or, "FWD can't be made to handle in big cars/cars with too much power"? Whilst I agree that bigger cars or cars with too much power are not good for FWD, certain chassis' are perfect for FWD.

It's not a perception that they handle well - they either do, or they don't. The 206GTi and MKI+2 GTIs were (and still are) some of the best handling cars even back 30+ years ago! There are still plenty of excellent handling FWD cars being made; Megane RS, XR5 etc.

In saying "Being FWD simply limits a small & light cars real potential" is not true at all. You would throw the whole weight distribution around [transverse gearbox in front 1/3, rear diff and different rear suspension also resulting in different driveline loss]. AWD changes things completely again with the inclusion of much heavier weight and how power is controlled to all four wheels.

A car with as much torque, power, and weight as a Falcon in FWD guise will handle even worse than a Camry/380 etc much like the Yanks have proved with awful creations like the Crown Vic, Ford Taurus, and Buick Regal. Aussies won't adopt it and I wouldn't either. I personally don't think Falcons or Commdores have great handling anyway, but I also don't deny that FWD will make them handle much worse and further to that will be dismissed by the buying public of Ford and Holden.

I only hope Mr CEO doesn't make a daft decision on something so critical to the future of the Australian Ford Falcon.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by HSE2

No it’s much simpler than that. There are no reasons based in Australia to go one way or the other.

People seem to think Ford is going to pay for a retool to build a specific global FWD product for such a small volume.

If your point about the Holden Ute was accurate it wouldn’t be selling now. There is no doubt Holden will enjoy increased volume from Ford’s defection because clearly load rating isn't that strong a reference mark even with the Ford utility. Watch a Ute ad these days and its likely to share about 50% billing with either refinement or comfort something the smaller harsher options don't supply. The serious load requirements will head the way of the imports but by and large that already happens now.

This is basically what im saying.
Why would Ford stick with a rwd aussie only platform when there is a much bigger market to be had in medium fwd vehicles much like the mondeo that is currently sold globally.
They dont need to retool to build something they already have, just develop it further.
Toyota arent rushing out to build a rwd big car to suit the Aussie market and if anyone can tool up for individuals it's Toyota.
What Ford need to do is push the medium size bracket and put the squeeze on Aurion\Camry for market share.

As for the Holden ute, it has between 500-800kg load capacity depending on model and will tow up to 1600kg going by tech data.
The falcon ute starts at 775kg and also tows 1600kg
The Ranger carries 1100kg and tows 3000kg.

I couldn't imagine too many serious tradies would opt for a wheel barrow with ss trim over a Ranger should the time come.

All juist opinions anyway.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

As for the Holden ute, it has between 500-800kg load capacity depending on model and will tow up to 1600kg going by tech data.
The falcon ute starts at 775kg and also tows 1600kg
The Ranger carries 1100kg and tows 3000kg.

I couldn't imagine too many serious tradies would opt for a wheel barrow with ss trim over a Ranger should the time come.

.

We were very close to going with Holden Utes last time and that’s for a fleet of 10.

We stuck with Ford but for what we use those for the Holden’s would have worked.

At the time the paper load capacity was too strong to break with tradition. It gave a few iota of flexibility at the time but it hasn’t really translated like that.

For heavier deliveries we have two trucks. We also have one field service Courier as a 4x4.

We won’t be going down that route again. Given a choice, no one likes using the courier and their paper advantage doesn’t really translate to real world as you would think either.

That’s for the agricultural industry.

The fact is that rarely do we need the extra capacity of the Ford. 1600 tow capacity is important but for anything else it’s not effective to use Utes at all but that just our experience.

If Ford were to drop the Ute, Holden would probably beef up the rear end a little anyway, if they thought they could attract the extra volume efficiently.

I have no hesitation claiming that the majority of Ford Ute sales would head Holden’s way simply because the load rating isn’t as big issue as it used to be. For us, small trucks would probably increase by two and Holden Utes the rest.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by HSE2

We were very close to going with Holden Utes last time and that’s for a fleet of 10.

We stuck with Ford but for what we use those for the Holden’s would have worked.

At the time the paper load capacity was too strong to break with tradition. It gave a few iota of flexibility at the time but it hasn’t really translated like that.

For heavier deliveries we have two trucks. We also have one field service Courier as a 4x4.

We won’t be going down that route again. Given a choice, no one likes using the courier and their paper advantage doesn’t really translate to real world as you would think either.

That’s for the agricultural industry.

The fact is that rarely do we need the extra capacity of the Ford. 1600 tow capacity is important but for anything else it’s not effective to use Utes at all but that just our experience.

If Ford were to drop the Ute, Holden would probably beef up the rear end a little anyway, if they thought they could attract the extra volume efficiently.

I have no hesitation claiming that the majority of Ford Ute sales would head Holden’s way simply because the load rating isn’t as big issue as it used to be. For us, small trucks would probably increase by two and Holden Utes the rest.

Yeah but Holden's utes go to water the moment you put load on them. Handling out the window and fuel consumption through the roof. Don't even come close to the Falcon in terms of work car.

[Gobes32]

I personally don't think it will be a fwd falcon rather than they are doing a business case to manufacture Mondeo in Aus. Remember that only last year over 30 mill was spent on new presses in Geelong. Ford need to make a return on those and if it means local manufacture of some of ford's smaller cars then that is only a good thing. Maybe in 5 years there will be Focus, Mondeo ( small falcon ) and Territory being manufactured and hopefully exported in Australia.