Japan Moves to Fast-Track Cars Powered by Hydrogen Fuel Cells

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

From what I understand Hydrogen fuel is brilliant but to expensive to make, from the fuel manufactures point of few why hurt their massive profit margins when they can just make petrol cheaply?

Because the cost of oil is only going to keep going up.

Electric cars are the future, no question about it.

Where the actual electricity comes from and how it is stored we can only guess.

[Dash_XR]

Not if we can't find a cheap/green/plentiful way to make electricity. They are a catch 22 atm, I think hydro will overtake them eventually though. No one knows really.

[Davehoos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place

Better Place was also to be the preferred provider of home and dealership charging stations for the Holden Volt, with the partnership announced in July 2012.[112]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/uciliawa...-to-liquidate/

This is why battery swap electric cars are not on the road. Probably find interviews with the company on line. I watched press club launch a few years ago and supported by some polical faces that are also no longer around--substance over style.

report show it collapsed due to miss management-not the end of[man made] global warming.

[mik]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Because the cost of oil is only going to keep going up.

Electric cars are the future, no question about it.

Where the actual electricity comes from and how it is stored we can only guess.

I don't know mate, humans are very good at finding alternatives, my guess is as petroleum gets more expensive synthetic fuels/ethanol will slowly increase in percentage to take up the slack, electric cars still have their issues to overcome, I wouldn't like to bet the house on pure electric just yet.

[Crazy Dazz]

Fine, let me spell this out (again.)
Hydrogen Fuel cells are NOT new, but they are nothing more than a scientific curiosity with limited practical use (much like the "Zinc-Bromide" battery.)
Purely electric cars (as opposed to hybrid or hyper cars) have limited practical application unless we can improve storage.
Using electricity to power cars does not solve most of the problems UNLESS we can make the electricity from something other than hydrocarbons.
Storing electricity as hydrogen to power fuel-cells is inherently grossly inefficient.
Hydrogen is ****ing dangerous.
When the seppos wanted to make the world's biggest chemical bomb (ie "MOAB" aka "Mother Of All Bombs" but actually Massive Ordinance Air Burst) they REJECTED Hydrogen as too dangerous and instead used Methane.
Tanks of petrol, lpg, and even CNG very rarely explode, except under extreme heat. Mostly they simply rupture (or crack a safety valve) and burn off. Hydrogen WILL explode.
Even the trapping of a small amount of air in the tank can cause compressed hydrogen to spontaneously explode.
Compressed Hydrogen is also highly corrosive and will react with most metals and organic compounds.
LPG is only practical because it is liquefied. CNG has limited range, but LNG applications are POSSIBLE. Hydrogen cannot be practically liquefied.

Gas IS dangerous, I won't have LPG on my boat.
I'll tolerate it in my car, because its vented externally and being a heavy gas will simply drain away. A tank of compressed hydrogen is probably more dangerous than an explosive.

Ultimately, hydrogen is completely pointless. It ONLY becomes remotely viable when electricity is both cheap and nolonger made from hydrocarbons. At which point batteries are a better option.

In the interim, if we want to move away from fossil fuels for cars, then ethanol, bio-diesel, and biogas, are the way to go.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Fine, let me spell this out (again.)
Hydrogen Fuel cells are NOT new, but they are nothing more than a scientific curiosity with limited practical use (much like the "Zinc-Bromide" battery.)
Purely electric cars (as opposed to hybrid or hyper cars) have limited practical application unless we can improve storage.
Using electricity to power cars does not solve most of the problems UNLESS we can make the electricity from something other than hydrocarbons.
Storing electricity as hydrogen to power fuel-cells is inherently grossly inefficient.
Hydrogen is ****ing dangerous.
When the seppos wanted to make the world's biggest chemical bomb (ie "MOAB" aka "Mother Of All Bombs" but actually Massive Ordinance Air Burst) they REJECTED Hydrogen as too dangerous and instead used Methane.
Tanks of petrol, lpg, and even CNG very rarely explode, except under extreme heat. Mostly they simply rupture (or crack a safety valve) and burn off. Hydrogen WILL explode.
Even the trapping of a small amount of air in the tank can cause compressed hydrogen to spontaneously explode.
Compressed Hydrogen is also highly corrosive and will react with most metals and organic compounds.
LPG is only practical because it is liquefied. CNG has limited range, but LNG applications are POSSIBLE. Hydrogen cannot be practically liquefied.

Gas IS dangerous, I won't have LPG on my boat.
I'll tolerate it in my car, because its vented externally and being a heavy gas will simply drain away. A tank of compressed hydrogen is probably more dangerous than an explosive.

Ultimately, hydrogen is completely pointless. It ONLY becomes remotely viable when electricity is both cheap and nolonger made from hydrocarbons. At which point batteries are a better option.

In the interim, if we want to move away from fossil fuels for cars, then ethanol, bio-diesel, and biogas, are the way to go.

You forgot to qualify your post as being simply your opinions.

Based on...well...nothing with any facts ..just your opinions....nothing more....nothing less.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

In the interim, if we want to move away from fossil fuels for cars, then ethanol, bio-diesel, and biogas, are the way to go.

Good in theory, but they utilize space on farms, which reduces the supply of food, driving up prices of food and animal feed. This drives up the cost for farmers, which further increases our food prices. That increases our costs of living in the same way that increased energy costs do, which causes inflation. Inflation and food shortages. Not good.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by zilo

You forgot to qualify your post as being simply your opinions.

Based on...well...nothing with any facts ..just your opinions....nothing more....nothing less.

Fine, let me spell this out (again.)
Hydrogen Fuel cells are NOT new. - FACT
Purely electric cars (as opposed to hybrid or hyper cars) have limited practical application unless we can improve storage. - FACT
Using electricity to power cars does not solve most of the problems UNLESS we can make the electricity from something other than hydrocarbons. - FACT
Storing electricity as hydrogen to power fuel-cells is inherently grossly inefficient. - FACT
Hydrogen is ****ing dangerous. - FACT
When the seppos wanted to make the world's biggest chemical bomb (ie "MOAB" aka "Mother Of All Bombs" but actually Massive Ordinance Air Burst) they REJECTED Hydrogen as too dangerous and instead used Methane. - FACT
Tanks of petrol, lpg, and even CNG very rarely explode, except under extreme heat. Mostly they simply rupture (or crack a safety valve) and burn off. Hydrogen WILL explode. - FACT
Even the trapping of a small amount of air in the tank can cause compressed hydrogen to spontaneously explode. - FACT
Compressed Hydrogen is also highly corrosive and will react with most metals and organic compounds. - FACT
LPG is only practical because it is liquefied. - FACT
CNG has limited range, but LNG applications are POSSIBLE. - FACT
Hydrogen cannot be practically liquefied. - FACT

Gas IS dangerous, I won't have LPG on my boat. - FACT
I'll tolerate it in my car, because its vented externally and being a heavy gas will simply drain away. - FACT
A tank of compressed hydrogen is probably more dangerous than an explosive. - Qualified Opinion

Ultimately, hydrogen is completely pointless. It ONLY becomes remotely viable when electricity is both cheap and nolonger made from hydrocarbons. - FACT
At which point batteries are a better option. - FACT

In the interim, if we want to move away from fossil fuels for cars, then ethanol, bio-diesel, and biogas, are the way to go. - Opinion based on FACT

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by chevypower

Good in theory, but they utilize space on farms, which reduces the supply of food,

This is true, and I'm no fan (for instance) of Bio Diesel made from Palm Oil. The Palm Oil industry in Indonesia is a major destroyer of rainforest and habitat.

Ultimately there ARE BIG questions that need to be asked and answered regarding sustainable population, but they're beyond the scope of this thread.

Put simply, at some point in the future we are going to face a severe shortage of fossil fuels. The reality is that maybe at that time private citizens will nolonger be able to afford to operate private vehicles.

Whether it is batteries, hydrogen fuel cells, or some other form of "stored energy" it doesn't help unless our electricity is from non-fossil sources. As mentioned, in Japan (and some other places) where they generate electricity from Nuclear power, that's fine. Hopefully Australia will be able to generate enough from Solar power.
However renewable fuels are also an option for motor vehicles (ships, planes, etc.) Maybe in a world without fossil fuels it will become viable to use solar(or nuclear)-powered desalination to cultivate crops in the desert.

[XBGTFGGTP]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

This is true, and I'm no fan (for instance) of Bio Diesel made from Palm Oil. The Palm Oil industry in Indonesia is a major destroyer of rainforest and habitat.

Ultimately there ARE BIG questions that need to be asked and answered regarding sustainable population, but they're beyond the scope of this thread.

Put simply, at some point in the future we are going to face a severe shortage of fossil fuels. The reality is that maybe at that time private citizens will nolonger be able to afford to operate private vehicles.

Whether it is batteries, hydrogen fuel cells, or some other form of "stored energy" it doesn't help unless our electricity is from non-fossil sources. As mentioned, in Japan (and some other places) where they generate electricity from Nuclear power, that's fine. Hopefully Australia will be able to generate enough from Solar power.
However renewable fuels are also an option for motor vehicles (ships, planes, etc.) Maybe in a world without fossil fuels it will become viable to use solar(or nuclear)-powered desalination to cultivate crops in the desert.

The yanks have got more oil reserves than the rest of the world put together. Neither ourselves or our children will witness the world run out of oil, and by the time it is gone alternative energy will be old news.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Fine, let me spell this out (again.)
Hydrogen Fuel cells are NOT new. - FACT
Purely electric cars (as opposed to hybrid or hyper cars) have limited practical application unless we can improve storage. - FACT
Using electricity to power cars does not solve most of the problems UNLESS we can make the electricity from something other than hydrocarbons. - FACT
Storing electricity as hydrogen to power fuel-cells is inherently grossly inefficient. - FACT
Hydrogen is ****ing dangerous. - FACT
When the seppos wanted to make the world's biggest chemical bomb (ie "MOAB" aka "Mother Of All Bombs" but actually Massive Ordinance Air Burst) they REJECTED Hydrogen as too dangerous and instead used Methane. - FACT
Tanks of petrol, lpg, and even CNG very rarely explode, except under extreme heat. Mostly they simply rupture (or crack a safety valve) and burn off. Hydrogen WILL explode. - FACT
Even the trapping of a small amount of air in the tank can cause compressed hydrogen to spontaneously explode. - FACT
Compressed Hydrogen is also highly corrosive and will react with most metals and organic compounds. - FACT
LPG is only practical because it is liquefied. - FACT
CNG has limited range, but LNG applications are POSSIBLE. - FACT
Hydrogen cannot be practically liquefied. - FACT

Gas IS dangerous, I won't have LPG on my boat. - FACT
I'll tolerate it in my car, because its vented externally and being a heavy gas will simply drain away. - FACT
A tank of compressed hydrogen is probably more dangerous than an explosive. - Qualified Opinion

Ultimately, hydrogen is completely pointless. It ONLY becomes remotely viable when electricity is both cheap and nolonger made from hydrocarbons. - FACT
At which point batteries are a better option. - FACT

In the interim, if we want to move away from fossil fuels for cars, then ethanol, bio-diesel, and biogas, are the way to go. - Opinion based on FACT

Most of the opinions above are based on unqualified opinion/bias and others highlight irrelevant points of obvious...FACT

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by XBGTFGGTP

The yanks have got more oil reserves than the rest of the world put together. Neither ourselves or our children will witness the world run out of oil, and by the time it is gone alternative energy will be old news.

The world will never run out of oil completely.

What will inevitably happen though is peak oil. One day we'll reach it, but we won't know we have for another 10 or more years.

Once we reach peak oil there will be chronic shortages and a huge spike in price, for the simple reason that demand is increasing sharply but at some point supply will start to drop.

When will we reach peak oil? Maybe we already have, maybe in 5, or 10, or 50, or 100 years. No one knows because it depends on what reserves are found in the future.

Originally Posted by mik

I don't know mate, humans are very good at finding alternatives, my guess is as petroleum gets more expensive synthetic fuels/ethanol will slowly increase in percentage to take up the slack, electric cars still have their issues to overcome, I wouldn't like to bet the house on pure electric just yet.

Chevypower pretty much hit the nail on the head here. Fuels like ethanol require crops, land, and resources that we kinda need to feed ourselves. Might seem like a good idea now, but as the worlds population continues to grow, and arable land continues to shrink it's unlikely we'll be able to grow our fuel and our food.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

Not if we can't find a cheap/green/plentiful way to make electricity. They are a catch 22 atm, I think hydro will overtake them eventually though. No one knows really.

Nuclear power, we've got shitloads of uranium, lets use it instead of selling it to overseas.

Then we can use the power plant as a cover to start making nuclear weapons, we'll build ICBMs in Darwin and take over Indonesia and NZ and start our own version of the USSR.

Vote 1 Damo for PM!

[XBGTFGGTP]

Once we reach peak oil there will be chronic shortages and a huge spike in price, for the simple reason that demand is increasing sharply but at some point supply will start to drop.

Listened to a Texan oil billionaire in a interview a few years back when oil was rocketing up in price. He said it wasn't demand driving price, it was speculators and demand had not increased as even though more cars on road they were far more efficient.

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Nuclear power, we've got shitloads of uranium, lets use it instead of selling it to overseas.

Then we can use the power plant as a cover to start making nuclear weapons, we'll build ICBMs in Darwin and take over Indonesia and NZ and start our own version of the USSR.

Vote 1 Damo for PM!

Wow you didn't just use the N word did you?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

Wow you didn't just use the N word did you?

Nuclear? Or the not so nice version of calling someone a negro?

Might as well as be the same with the reaction to nuclear power in this country lol.