Falcon & Territory : Alternate Reality

[malazn mafia]

So, with Ford Australia a year away from shutting its doors forever, I can't help but wonder what will happen to all the dies & stamping equipment used to build Falcon & Territory. The Falcon & Territory are relatively modern platforms with good handling, good crash safety, etc and it is a pity that they are going to waste. What are some possibilities if someone were to purchase these from Ford Aus, ship them overseas (or maybe give it a try locally first), and produce some world class vehicles.

As far as I see, the Falcon and Territory are nearly there to make it big worldwide: an LHD conversion, modernised interior, small tweaks to the bodywork, new electrics, new drivetrain that is Euro 5 / 6 compliant (what about an electric drivetrain?). Perhaps they could be the new taxis for developing nations in Asia, replacing those eyesore ageing Toyota Crown Comforts/Nissan Cedrics (which are still being built, and would have terrible safety, with platforms originating from the late 70s).

The Ford Falcon 2.0 EcoBoost is just the right size for those Asian nations with engine-capacity based road tax. The 2.7 LR V6 TDCI is also suitable, as diesel vehicles have lower road tax.

All the basics are there, structural integrity, chassis dynamics, good manufacturing techniques, so why not ? It would certainly be a better base to start from, than spending the hundreds of millions for creating 2 new vehicles from scratch?

The question would be, how much of the Falcon & Territory are actually produced in-house by Ford, vs components built by 3rd party suppliers or imported from overseas? I am assuming the equipment in-house at Ford would be capable of producing a rolling shell, complete with all hanging panels, and basic suspension/steering components? Ford would probably have no in-house capability to manufacture the seats/dash/plastic bumpers/lights etc.

[mike_nofx]

Let them R.I.P.

Falcon and Territory are Australian cars designed for Australian conditions and yet no one here wants them anymore. What makes you think Asian countries will want them?
I don't see a market for them.

[MethodX]

Scrap value I guess.

[FPV-800]

Sell the stamping presses and dies to Rare Spares so we can have heaps of spares for our cars in the future, I can't see Ford having a large stockpile of parts after production ceases.

[I6DOHC]

Would be brilliant idea - crowdfund it you never know. To be honest though, you would want the next wave to build on & better the existing platforms otherwise it would erode the legacy of what the Falcon became with the FG (and what has been allowed to slowly wither & die).

The wheel will turn, but unfortunately for Australia's sake (and my children's sake) it will come after manufacturing and associated the innovation has been well and truly buried by the would be 'Governments' this nation has had over the last number of decades.

With a plunging Aussie dollar, unemployment pressures and a workforce getting less skilled by the day, we will rue the day we flushed this industry down the toilet. Let's hope Ford stay true to the investment in the Automotive R&D sector for the long term - as that at least means there is still some real Aussie influence in cars we may drive in the future.

[QIKESP]

The Presses and Die's used to stamp out panels are simply huge. Die sets can easily weigh in excess of 10tons.

Die assemblies are designed around the existing press type, so everything would have to be utilized as a package to continue stamping out panels.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

...
The question would be, how much of the Falcon & Territory are actually produced in-house by Ford, vs components built by 3rd party suppliers or imported from overseas? I am assuming the equipment in-house at Ford would be capable of producing a rolling shell, complete with all hanging panels, and basic suspension/steering components?...

Even the front & rear suspension assemblies come from 3rd party (affiliated) suppliers. In this case Dana.

I started to lose hope when I discovered the troublesome Territory ball joints and suspension arms came from Brazil to be built into sub-assemblies here (locally sourced ).







.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Even the front & rear suspension assemblies come from 3rd party (affiliated) suppliers. In this case Dana.

I started to lose hope when I discovered the troublesome Territory ball joints and suspension arms came from Brazil to be built into sub-assemblies locally (locally sourced ).

Gee, that's a shame, when did Ford start cheapening out and using Brazil, or was this out of Ford's control, and in the realm of Dana?

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

So, with Ford Australia a year away from shutting its doors forever, I can't help but wonder what will happen to all the dies & stamping equipment used to build Falcon & Territory. The Falcon & Territory are relatively modern platforms with good handling, good crash safety, etc and it is a pity that they are going to waste. What are some possibilities if someone were to purchase these from Ford Aus, ship them overseas (or maybe give it a try locally first), and produce some world class vehicles.

As far as I see, the Falcon and Territory are nearly there to make it big worldwide: an LHD conversion, modernised interior, small tweaks to the bodywork, new electrics, new drivetrain that is Euro 5 / 6 compliant (what about an electric drivetrain?). Perhaps they could be the new taxis for developing nations in Asia, replacing those eyesore ageing Toyota Crown Comforts/Nissan Cedrics (which are still being built, and would have terrible safety, with platforms originating from the late 70s).

The Ford Falcon 2.0 EcoBoost is just the right size for those Asian nations with engine-capacity based road tax. The 2.7 LR V6 TDCI is also suitable, as diesel vehicles have lower road tax.

All the basics are there, structural integrity, chassis dynamics, good manufacturing techniques, so why not ? It would certainly be a better base to start from, than spending the hundreds of millions for creating 2 new vehicles from scratch?

The question would be, how much of the Falcon & Territory are actually produced in-house by Ford, vs components built by 3rd party suppliers or imported from overseas? I am assuming the equipment in-house at Ford would be capable of producing a rolling shell, complete with all hanging panels, and basic suspension/steering components? Ford would probably have no in-house capability to manufacture the seats/dash/plastic bumpers/lights etc.

So basically what you're suggesting is a next-generation Falcon and Territory.

You're talking serious dollars there. The sort of dollars that FoA could no longer justify investing in a market segment that is contracting to the point of insignificance. And not just in Australia either - it is a global trend, hence Dearborn's reluctance to commit to any such platform development outside of its modular FWD-based mass market platforms.

The Territory could have made a go of it yes, but once again, starved of funds and competing with Ford products from other parts of the world - unfortunately the only people who will ever get to appreciate what we had is us.

[Trump]

The dies will go to the tip or be recycled as scrap metal. As QIKESP said, they are only useful as complete assemblies with the presses themselves.

Then again, there are aftermarket panels for FG and Territory already (imports of course), so they could well end up overseas.

[FairmontGS]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Let them R.I.P.

Falcon and Territory are Australian cars designed for Australian conditions and yet no one here wants them anymore. What makes you think Asian countries will want them?
I don't see a market for them.

+ 1 for that - they died because no-one, including Oz wanted them anymore. But don't let me stop you using your money to prove me wrong ;-)

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

So basically what you're suggesting is a next-generation Falcon and Territory.

You're talking serious dollars there. The sort of dollars that FoA could no longer justify investing in a market segment that is contracting to the point of insignificance. And not just in Australia either - it is a global trend, hence Dearborn's reluctance to commit to any such platform development outside of its modular FWD-based mass market platforms.

The Territory could have made a go of it yes, but once again, starved of funds and competing with Ford products from other parts of the world - unfortunately the only people who will ever get to appreciate what we had is us.

Depending on what Ford wants for the stamping equipment and the dies. Some ancient vehicles much older than FG/Territory are still in production today and are certainly merely putting dollars in the manufacturers' wallets with no more R&D overhead. Take for instance the hideous 60 series straight out of 1982 and being put through the face-off machine to try to give it an updated look, or the AMG G-Wagen or whatever it is called, or the Toyota coaster which has been unchanged since 1993 (and has several clones/derivatives licensed to Chinese automakers). If 80s and 90s automotive antiquities still have a place in the 201X, certainly there would still be place for a platform released in 2004/2008. If one already had the R&D and equipment cost carved out for them or could obtain it for a fraction of the cost, they would be in a similar position.

Wonder if people would still ignore a derivative of the Falcon/Falcon Ute if it could be bought at 90s prices, say $26k driveaway, or a Territory for that price. Strip out all the irrelevant tech, and bring back reliable A->B motoring, but with 21st century structural safety and driving aids. Have an aftermarket division who can fit out the luxuries if the customer so wants. With little to no R&D overhead, and manufactured in a place like Taiwan, Indonesia, India, or bits and pieces here and there, it really could happen?

[johnydep]

^^^ seriously?

The Landcruiser has world wide market, it's basically a work horse in many disguises - from the basic to the fully optioned luxury box.

Mercedes have enough capacity too build small runs of an ugly model that has a passionate buyer base.

Ford gave the Territory & Falcon a slow death. Starting with the introduction of the AU while talking of a Mondeo replacement for it. The Terri just never got the support it deserved - R&D, quality control, earlier updates, export marketing.

An idea you might want to look at is forming a company, offer share options to get funding & then purchase the equipment to allow you to start your idea. However, I seriously doubt that you'd get enough people interested to hand over the $$$

Ford Oz, the Falcon & Territory - so long and thanks for all the fish.. oops, I mean memories ;-)

[XRtowcar]

Are the XB coupe dies still in storage?

[XG_Falcon]

Originally Posted by FPV-800

Sell the stamping presses and dies to Rare Spares so we can have heaps of spares for our cars in the future, I can't see Ford having a large stockpile of parts after production ceases.

Although I agree with your premise I'm certain Ford are legally obliged to provide spare parts for a number of years after production ceases. This is rather boring but important info.

Page 18: "...for a new motor vehicle, it would be reasonable to expect that spare parts will be available for many years after it's purchase."
http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/acl_resources/downloads/industry_guides/motor_vehicle_sales.pdf

Page 17: "Manufacturers or importers guarantee they will take reasonable steps to provide spare parts and repair facilities ... for a reasonable time after purchase."
http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/conten...tees_guide.pdf

https://www.accc.gov.au/business/treating-customers-fairly/consumers-rights-obligations
Under consumer guarantees applying to goods:
- Businesses that sell goods guarantee that those goods: "have spare parts and repair facilities reasonably available for a reasonable period of time, unless the consumer is advised otherwise."

So basically Holden and Ford are legally obliged to manufacture a stockpile of parts. I once read somewhere that ten years worth was the norm but I can't find a source.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

Although I agree with your premise I'm certain Ford are legally obliged to provide spare parts for a number of years after production ceases. This is rather boring but important info.

Page 18: "...for a new motor vehicle, it would be reasonable to expect that spare parts will be available for many years after it's purchase."
http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/acl_resources/downloads/industry_guides/motor_vehicle_sales.pdf

Page 17: "Manufacturers or importers guarantee they will take reasonable steps to provide spare parts and repair facilities ... for a reasonable time after purchase."
http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/conten...tees_guide.pdf

https://www.accc.gov.au/business/treating-customers-fairly/consumers-rights-obligations
Under consumer guarantees applying to goods:
- Businesses that sell goods guarantee that those goods: "have spare parts and repair facilities reasonably available for a reasonable period of time, unless the consumer is advised otherwise."

So basically Holden and Ford are legally obliged to manufacture a stockpile of parts. I once read somewhere that ten years worth was the norm but I can't find a source.

10 years was the recommendation up until the end of the 90's, when the average age of the Aussie fleet was ancient compared to the rest of the first world. From memory it was changed to 6 years.

Many wrecking yards don't even keep much for older cars these days.

[Trump]

Reasonableness doesn't mean squat when the supplier goes breasticles up. Case in point, try find a cloth sun visor for the FG as a new part...

[bazza91]

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

Although I agree with your premise I'm certain Ford are legally obliged to provide spare parts for a number of years after production ceases. This is rather boring but important info.

Page 18: "...for a new motor vehicle, it would be reasonable to expect that spare parts will be available for many years after it's purchase."
http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/acl_resources/downloads/industry_guides/motor_vehicle_sales.pdf

Page 17: "Manufacturers or importers guarantee they will take reasonable steps to provide spare parts and repair facilities ... for a reasonable time after purchase."
http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/conten...tees_guide.pdf

https://www.accc.gov.au/business/treating-customers-fairly/consumers-rights-obligations
Under consumer guarantees applying to goods:
- Businesses that sell goods guarantee that those goods: "have spare parts and repair facilities reasonably available for a reasonable period of time, unless the consumer is advised otherwise."

So basically Holden and Ford are legally obliged to manufacture a stockpile of parts. I once read somewhere that ten years worth was the norm but I can't find a source.

Its all well and good that they are required to do so, BUT as we know they also like to charge an arm, a leg, your bank account and your first born for even the smallest of parts. And it also doesnt help if this era of cars hang around as the x series and the likes have hung in there for.

Rare spares or a company of the likes would certainly be able to make good use of the dies if attained at a reasonable price. However id say its far more likely that they will end up scrapped.

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Let them R.I.P.

Falcon and Territory are Australian cars designed for Australian conditions and yet no one here wants them anymore. What makes you think Asian countries will want them?
I don't see a market for them.

You could market them to the Chinese & say they're melamine-free.

[XG_Falcon]

Originally Posted by johnydep

10 years was the recommendation up until the end of the 90's

Yes, that rings a bell. thanks for that.

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

Reasonableness doesn't mean squat when the supplier goes breasticles up. Case in point, try find a cloth sun visor for the FG as a new part...

Originally Posted by bazza91

Its all well and good that they are required to do so, BUT as we know they also like to charge an arm, a leg, your bank account and your first born for even the smallest of parts.

I still think it is of significant importance that Ford has at least two legal obligations to provide spare parts into the future (both as a retailer and manufacturer of vehicles). They simply cannot weasel out of it, sure the parts might be pricey but motoring in general isn't cheap. If they put a foot wrong, the consumer has a legal right to compensation. It's all explained thoroughly via the links I posted as sources.