The ETS (Extra Tax Scheme) has been DEFEATED

RG · 02-12-2009, 01:09 PM

Yep, not enough Liberals crossed the floor. Good on them!

The other thread was getting quite full so I thought I'd start a newy to clean things up a little.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/emi...-1225806060856

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herald Sun

THE emissions trading scheme has been defeated in the Senate, as the government failed to get enough Liberals to cross the floor. Climate Change Minister Penny Wong sat through much of the 40-plus hour debate on the government's emissions trading scheme but her efforts have been in vain, as the package of 11 bills setting up the carbon pollution reduction scheme was defeated.

The bills were defeated by 41 votes to 33.

Labor won the support of two Liberal senators, Sue Boyce and Judith Troeth, five votes short of the seven needed to push the scheme through parliament.

"You do not tackle climate change unless you change your economy,'' Senator Wong told the upper house before the defeat. "You have to make polluters pay.''

Senator Wong delivered an impassioned final address, declaring climate change sceptics to really be deniers.

"This government is ensuring through this plan ... that the majority of assistance goes to Australian households.''

The South Australian senator said many of the arguments against the trading plan were a sham.

"These are people sprinting back to the past."

Nationals Senate leader Barnaby Joyce has started rejoicing even before the defeat was made official.

"It's absolutely humbling,'' he said of the involvement of many voters in the climate change debate.

"The Australian people are going to be the greatest winners.''

**Charliewool** · 02-12-2009, 01:13 PM

Common sense prevails (For now)

MAV50L · 02-12-2009, 01:13 PM

Well lets see how long it stays defeated until some back room deal gets done and it magically gets passed.
I all for it staying dead. If it got through we were all stuffed.

**Polyal** · 02-12-2009, 01:25 PM

Thank god for that.

SB076 · 02-12-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

"You do not tackle climate change unless you change your economy,'' Senator Wong told the upper house before the defeat. "You have to make polluters pay.''

Got to love that comment - pity she left out who would really end up paying for the scheme - which would be all of us. Think the government would have learned extra taxes on pre mixed drinks didnt stop people drinking, ETS wouldnt have stopped larger companies polluting. Hopefully now if they really want to tackle enviromental issues they will look at some genuine solutions rather than simply tax everyone.

Think its sad to look back and see what as a nation we have managed in the past (ie hydro power from the snowy mountains) and then you look at the present and our government cant get a public transport ticketing system to work (Myki)

4Vman · 02-12-2009, 01:45 PM

Great result.. flawed logic about "making the polluters pay", all they'd do is pass the cost onto consumers, plus margin.

RG · 02-12-2009, 01:50 PM

As much as I don't agree with some of Mr Abbott's views I must say it is nice to finally have an opposition leader that has the testicular fortitude to stand up and say "No, I don't agree and will stand against this".

ltd · 02-12-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG

As much as I don't agree with some of Mr Abbott's views I must say it is nice to finally have an opposition leader that has the testicular fortitude to stand up and say "No, I don't agree and will stand against this".

Agree 100%. Apparently Tony is promoting Barnaby Joyce to the front bench too, which means the ETS will remain dead.

4Vman · 02-12-2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG

As much as I don't agree with some of Mr Abbott's views I must say it is nice to finally have an opposition leader that has the testicular fortitude to stand up and say "No, I don't agree and will stand against this".

Reminds me a bit of "Jeff"...

redauxr8 · 02-12-2009, 02:07 PM

pollution -1
environment-0

4Vman · 02-12-2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redauxr8

pollution -1
environment-0

Please explain...

RG · 02-12-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Reminds me a bit of "Jeff"...

You may be onto something there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redauxr8

pollution -1
environment-0

I think you should have an actual look at this plan before commenting. The argument for and against climate change is irrelevant here as is the argument on whether it actually exists and is man made. Both null and void here.

The simple fact of the matter is that "if" there is an issue that needs to be rectified placing a tax on it is not a valid way to do so as it will have no impact on the "polluters" or the environment. The only thing to gain anything is the Government and the only ones penalised are the everyday householders as any extra tax/fees/charges incurred by any company/institution/organisation will invariably be passed on to the end user/consumer.

There is no argument that can actually disagree with that.

redauxr8 · 02-12-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Please explain...

Im 50-50, really, but seriously come to the Kimberley in WA and feel the heat, this has been the hottest year of my life, 40 degrees for the last 2-3 weeks and no rain so far.... I suppose this makes it easier for me to believe in "climate change"

Obviously the ETS wasn't going to change this, but it was a step forward to start making an improvement. It was a bit dodgy though and had all the makings of a $$$$ scheme..

My poor XF · 02-12-2009, 02:28 PM

Good to see common sense prevail though I don't appreciate being branded a climate science denier or a climate skeptic simply because I am able to see no econmoic or environmental benefit arising from the propsed ETS!!

RG · 02-12-2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redauxr8

Im 50-50, really, but seriously come to the Kimberley in WA and feel the heat, this has been the hottest year of my life, 40 degrees for the last 2-3 weeks and no rain so far.... I suppose this makes it easier for me to believe in "climate change"

Obviously the ETS wasn't going to change this, but it was a step forward to start making an improvement. It was a bit dodgy though and had all the makings of a $$$$ scheme..

I bet if you look back through the records you will find temperatures that resemble this year in previous years.

4Vman · 02-12-2009, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redauxr8

Im 50-50, really, but seriously come to the Kimberley in WA and feel the heat, this has been the hottest year of my life, 40 degrees for the last 2-3 weeks and no rain so far.... I suppose this makes it easier for me to believe in "climate change"

Obviously the ETS wasn't going to change this, but it was a step forward to start making an improvement. It was a bit dodgy though and had all the makings of a $$$$ scheme..

We've had ice ages and drought and heat waves before in our history, but the debate about climate change is irrelevant in the context of this proposed tax.
The tax wont have any effect on reducing climate change or pollution, it will simply make some goods and services more expensive and the net costs will be passed onto consumers by way of higher prices.

MO · 02-12-2009, 02:47 PM

@redauxr8, Climate change is real,it is always changing and always will.
Climate has cycles this is just one of them.
To say that we,humans, caused this is fallacy. To say Co2 is a pollutant is fallacy,without co2 we would be in trouble.
Then there is the fact that the climate on planets such as Mars and I think Jupiter is changing in similar manner to Earth. Are there humans on these planets causing this,No.

The big problem is we are not being told everything,why, because there are those who have money and power have an agenda. Part of that agenda is a one world government. As an example take the Euro just another step to the goal. Take a look at the UK most of their laws etc are coming out of Belgium.

Take the time to look at what has and is happening around the world with regard to everything being one i.e. currency,business,government etc.

XWGT · 02-12-2009, 04:02 PM

To be honet I dont think this has anything to do with a YES/ NO proposition to some form of ETS.

I think its just common sense that everyone (except KRudd) thinks it might just be worth delaying locking us into a particular scheme until Copenhagen occurs and we can take a look at what the rest of the world is proposing to tackle the climate change problem.

There is no doubt Australia will have some form of plan to tackle climate change. It may or may not be called an ETS. And hopefully it will be framed in a more constructive way and in line with the rest of the worlds strategies rather than an ego trip for KRudd to run into the boardroom at Copenhagen and say "looks, I have an ETS, can I now sit at the adults table?"

MO · 02-12-2009, 04:42 PM

@xwgt,Climate change cannot be changed/stopped/altered or whatever, it is beyond our control. It is totally in the control of Mother Nature(no not our beloved MN) in the other thread there is an example of how much we contribute to the atmosphere,using a kilometer as the yardstick and it is ..."one human hair size..." in that kilometer.

When are ppl going to realise that they're trying to con us.

wkd-windza · 02-12-2009, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG

I bet if you look back through the records you will find temperatures that resemble this year in previous years.

Exactly, thats why they changed it from "global warming" to "climate change" theres no real proof that its getting warmer

XWGT · 02-12-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wkd-windza

Exactly, thats why they changed it from "global warming" to "climate change" theres no real proof that its getting warmer

You may be absolutely correct. However if you think there will not be a global ETS with the next 24 months your kidding yourself :-)

There are MOUNTAINS of cash to be made from an ETS......so you might as well decide now whether you want it to be an end consumer pricing model or a subsidised and smoothed economic model. Cos either way one is coming.

All the Liberals were doing when voting it down was to say lets look at everyone else's ideas first, rather than simply accept KRudd's disaster of a model.

**Polyal** · 02-12-2009, 05:00 PM

There is no doubt we should continue bettering processes etc to help reduce our emissions, but this was just crazy and would be incredibly hard to implement.

Would the tax really force people to change or would they just buy up cheap credits to compensate..hmm

GK · 02-12-2009, 05:03 PM

The givernment intends to go with the bill plus the recently agreed to changes (by Turnbull and his then supporters) to the house again first sitting day of parlaiment next year.

This is only one round of many that we'll need to win to stop this extra tax.

Good on the many Libs for having the guts to stand up to the bully tactics of the Labour party.

GK

SB076 · 02-12-2009, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XWGT

You may be absolutely correct. However if you think there will not be a global ETS with the next 24 months your kidding yourself :-)

There are MOUNTAINS of cash to be made from an ETS......so you might as well decide now whether you want it to be an end consumer pricing model or a subsidised and smoothed economic model. Cos either way one is coming.

All the Liberals were doing when voting it down was to say lets look at everyone else's ideas first, rather than simply accept KRudd's disaster of a model.

and therein lies the problem ETS is just another cash grab. Unfortunately I agree with you and think there is too much money for the government to simply walk away from it all.

**Falcon Coupe** · 02-12-2009, 05:21 PM

Common sense is rare these days, I'll take this as a win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redauxr8

pollution -1
environment-0

I still don't understand how so many still believe the ETS would do anything more than destroy our economy:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...e-experts.html

rodderz · 02-12-2009, 07:02 PM

There are still a heap of people who don't really see the ETS as being of interest to them, I'll admit if I didnt have the means to find out more about it I would be in that group too. Politics is boring.

But once people do find out it's inner workings and the agenda behind it they get genuinely worried about the outcome. There is some serious stuff to worry about concerning the group of people who are pushing ahead with the climate change treaty worldwide.

Penny Wong seems to be trying to make Abbott feel guilty, yet she's not even mentioned anything about it other than "it's our biggest threat in our lifetime". What a good excuse to beat more money out of us. Our planet has been evolving for millions of years and still is, and while it's great to be looking after our environment, this is taking this too far.

**FTE217** · 02-12-2009, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MO

@xwgt,Climate change cannot be changed/stopped/altered or whatever, it is beyond our control. It is totally in the control of Mother Nature(no not our beloved MN) in the other thread there is an example of how much we contribute to the atmosphere,using a kilometer as the yardstick and it is ..."one human hair size..." in that kilometer.

When are ppl going to realise that they're trying to con us.

On ya MO ! like your post but for the "con us"....more like they are "railroading us" lets hope this is the start of the "derailment !" as well.

onfire · 02-12-2009, 07:22 PM

Once it was ' Global warming ' then it became ' Climate change ' due to no significant data to support the concept.. next, they'll call it ' climate modification ' and try to sell the idea of building a ' cooler ' tomorrow.

Wally · 02-12-2009, 07:43 PM

I think you'll find there is significant scientific and anecdotal evidence to support the notion of global warming. NASA's Goddard Institute comes to mind as an organisation who doesn't have reason, but to tell it as it is....afterall putting stuff and people in space does require some fairly precise data.

vztrt · 02-12-2009, 07:43 PM

Happy to see the ETS defeated and that an early election hasn't been called.