Loophole puts P-platers into fast cars

[Bobman]

Typical media over-reaction again. I said in the 5 fatal crash thread that the media were talking about the car being high powered and here's more proof.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/lo...ml?autostart=1

P-PLATERS are driving powerful high-performance cars despite VicRoads regulations intended to ban them from the potentially dangerous vehicles.

Loopholes mean the regulations are failing to catch the latest breed of more efficient diesel and hybrid vehicles, allowing P-platers to drive high-performance six-cylinders such as the Ford Falcon XR6. This was the car in which five youths were killed two weeks ago. Young drivers are forbidden to drive other less powerful cars.

VicRoads altered the regulations in 2007, maintaining a power-to-weight ratio limit on turbocharged cars, but not restricting more powerful regular engines. Many of these cars are more powerful than V8s, which P-platers are prohibited from driving.

Some Holden Commodore V6s have 210 kilowatts of power, which is more than many V8s of a few years ago and more than a Mercedes-Benz V6 included on a VicRoads list of banned vehicles for P-platers.

VicRoads defends switching from a system of calculating the power-to-weight ratio on all cars to only turbocharged models, claiming it was difficult to calculate on all cars.

''The revised restrictions make it easier for probationary drivers to follow,'' said George Mavroyeni, VicRoads executive director of road safety and network access. ''The decision to abandon the power-to-weight ratio method was made because motorists had difficulty identifying high-powered vehicles. For example, a small change in the specification of the vehicle - such as year of manufacture, or transmission type - could put the vehicle above or below the limit."

The latest breed of environmentally-friendly cars are also not included on the VicRoads list of prohibited vehicles. Jaguar has a new V6 diesel engine in its XF, which produces 202 kilowatts of power and is capable of accelerating to 100km/h in 6.4 seconds - quicker than some sports cars.

Car makers are turning to diesel engines for performance models. Renault and Volkswagen have hot diesel hatches, and Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz are expanding their line-up of diesels.

VicRoads also bans all V8s, which means the Lexus GS430 sold until two years ago cannot be driven by P-platers. Yet the more powerful hybrid version - which combines a V6 engine with an electric motor - is approved.

Chief executive of the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries, Andrew McKellar, says the banning of some vehicles is forcing P-platers into less safe vehicles. ''Victoria originally had a better rationale for restricting vehicles on the basis of power to weight. However, having followed the NSW lead in more recent times, I think they've fallen into the same trap,'' he said.

He said there was not appropriate consultation with industry regarding the regulations.

''I don't think there has been any evidence brought to bear that there's a correlation between the types of vehicles banned and the vehicles P-platers are having crashes in. Newer vehicles have more advanced safety features … what's the point of banning a vehicle with [stability control] if they go to a vehicle that doesn't have it,'' Mr McKellar said.

[Zedjay]

dont the XR6 and XT use the same running gear??

[The Monty]

Yep, but XR6 is heavier, lol.

[Green X]

"Jaguar has a new V6 diesel engine in its XF, which produces 202 kilowatts of power and is capable of accelerating to 100km/h in 6.4 seconds - quicker than some sports cars.

Car makers are turning to diesel engines for performance models. Renault and Volkswagen have hot diesel hatches, and Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz are expanding their line-up of diesels."

WOW they are all typical cars P plate drivers may own like a 60k 3 series diesel.

Last time i looked a 4cly Camry will still clock 140km/h +

[US kills Falcon]

A Madza 6 will out accelerate a VN Commodore with the standard 165kW V8. Yet there are many P platers driving such cars. It is not the amount of cylinders which count - it is the nut holding the steering wheel which is the main factor.

[InfernoSR]

Typical stupid government trying to control us... sheesh...

But i do love how they classified the XR6 with the diesel and hybrid category... lol

[pauljh74]

The Commodore SV6 with 210kW is just over the old 125kW/tonne in manual guise, and just under in auto.
The Jaguar is around 110kW/tonne, as well as the Lexus GS450H
Yes, they have a bit of power, but they are getting close to 2 tonnes
The XR6 (N/A) is under the old limit and allowed under new laws as well, yet this car is singled out from the Falcon range and cars like the Aurion, which has more power and less weight is spared scrutiny.

Vicroads claim that motorists had difficulty identifying banned cars is crap - there was a comprehensive list available - if it was on the list, you couldn't legally drive it.
The Vic government blindly followed NSW with these rules, despite all the arguments that came forward when NSW introduced their rules. The old system was fairer and was more effective.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Zedjay

dont the XR6 and XT use the same running gear??

AFAIK XR6 has a different diff ratio in the E and B series so has a bit more poke.

Also with tyres and suspension on the XR6 it is more tempting to drive it harder than an XT which handles like a boat.

[Franco Cozzo]

Its not the power of the car thats the problem, its the moron behind the wheel unfortunately.

They do have a point though, the new P plate restrictions did make it easier to get into a "high powered/fast car" by removing the power:weight ratio limit, you just need to think away from Holden/Ford and start thinking Mazda/Honda. RX8 is now legal, which will do 0-100km/h in 6.5 seconds and similar figures from a Honda DC2/5 Type R Integra.

They're both about >$25,000. So its in reach to the P plater with a job and money saving skills.

Also with the Turbo exemption:

From 6 July 2009, drivers issued with a probationary licence on or after 1 July 2007 may drive some lower performance turbocharged or supercharged vehicles. The definition of a lower performance turbocharged or supercharged vehicle is a vehicle with 6 cylinders or less that is;

* turbocharged or supercharged with a power to weight ratio of less than 100kW per tonne;

* turbocharged or supercharged with a power to weight ratio between 100kW and 125kW per tonne and that is considered to be a family type vehicle (4 seats or more) rather than a sports type vehicle.

A family type vehicle is a sedan, station wagon or hatch normally used to carry families/passengers with 4 or more seats and are equipped with child restraint anchorages. A family type vehicle does not include a sports car (two door coupe).

Toyota Aristo, 4 doors, 5 seats, child ancorages and within 125Kw/Tonne power to weight raito, it has the same 2JZGTE I6 that the MKIV Toyota Supra has, so it can get down and boogy. That fits the bolded criteria perfectly. Think of it as the XR6T of the Jap Imports.

I'm going for my Ps on March 9, so when (if) I pass the test, I'll put in an exemption form and see what they say.

[V8 Man]

Yet another example of the government trying to control something they don't understand. How ridiculous that a P plater in Victoria cannot drive a 'powerful V8' like an XC 302 or an HZ 253 but an FG or VE 6 cyl. is fine.

[Elks]

And Jaguar and Mercedes-Benz sell how many XF's and E350's to P platers LOL

These journo's are on as many drugs as the nongs at Vicroads.

Almost every car sold can do 130kph in a 60 zone. The issue is with the driver not vehicle.

[Chilliman]

Smells like they want to ban the stereo-typical bogan/hoon cars like Falcon XR6 & Commodore SV6 (what the sheepish wider public perceive these cars to be) but can't figure out a way of doing it without banning just about every car this side of a Hyundai i30!

Well guess what, if you banned all cars with just a hint of power and all that was left was Huyndai i30s, Toyota Yaris and Honda Jazz - the bogan/hoons would still find a way to write themselves off :

[The G6ET Spot]

There is a young guy that works with my wife that came into some money.

P plater and drives a new M3, I don't know how he get away with it as far as the RTA is concerned.

Would hate to see the insurance premiums.

All these do gooders jump up and down about 6 cylinder car and alike, bu they forget that there are 4 cylinder cars that will still do in excess of 160kph.

If they were crashing in those, where would they go from there.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by RAPID XR8

There is a young guy that works with my wife that came into some money.

P plater and drives a new M3, I don't know how he get away with it as far as the RTA is concerned.

Would hate to see the insurance premiums.

All these do gooders jump up and down about 6 cylinder car and alike, bu they forget that there are 4 cylinder cars that will still do in excess of 160kph.

If they were crashing in those, where would they go from there.

Aren't the new M3s, all 4L V8s? The old E36 M3, which has the 3L I6 is specifically banned for P platers, I'd imagine cops would be all over him.

[asusdragon]

sorry but only thing I find funny here is it doesnt matter weather you drive a 1.3L 4 cyclinder 1994 Barina or a 2010 V8 Falcon/Commodore. It can still go faster then the speed limit and can still hit things. For me when I have kids Id rather them drive something like a newer Falcon as it has the lastest safetly gear and also has a lot more "car" between the ""wall" and the driver

Only another point my miss had a 2000 VW Passet 1.8L Turbo Petrol puts out about 110KwFw (new) so P platers cant drive that because it has a turbo but could drive My BA XT (fairly modded) which has about 210-220KwFw.......... sorry Im lost now

[chrisfpv]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Its not the power of the car thats the problem, its the moron behind the wheel unfortunately.

Exactly! It generally doesn't matter how powerful the car is, if the driver wants to do 140km/h he is going to do it whether or not it's in an XR6 or a Camry.

Keep P platers off powerful cars within reason. A Ford Falcon XR6 in my opinion does not fall into this category.

[jpd80]

Irrespective of age or license status, I think we're all saying similar things regarding driver's responsibility.
If drivers cannot exercise the self control needed to obey speed limits, basic road rules and courtesy to others
then they have no place on the road.

20 years years ago, I used to be one of those pushy people that wanted everyone else to drive like me
at or above the speed limits, why is that fool in my way, I'll just pass all these idiots and be on my way.....

The good thing was that I managed to grow out of that phase, accept that the other drivers I was abusing
were peoples, mothers/fathers/children just trying to get tho their destinations and to share the road with others.......

It's not about the vehicle you drive - that's the lamest excuse out there, it's all about the driver taking responsibility. Today I am courteous, predictable and if anyone wants to pass me, I let them do it in safety because I've learned that everyone is on a different journey.... and the cops are just up in front..

[EDManual]

hyundai i 30s will still do over 200... camrys will do near 190... i even have a hyundai accent 1.5 that sits on over 200 after it got a run up down hill (and 185 on the flat)(gps proven in NT). Any car can do well over 150...

All cars are obviously dangerous, and in fact falcons are the least dangerous as they are often speed limited at 180 or something :-) , not like those i30s and elantras that are speed limited at 210 (which is over their top speed)!

[TUF_302]

Ban low performance drivers, not High performance Cars!

[FPV8U]

Here we go, one more push and it will be Lancers and Fiestas all round untill 25 if the media have it there way..

I do wonder, who will they blame when we still get 5-6 Fatalities when a Fiesta XR4 slams into a pole at 140km/h with 5 on board?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by EDManual

hyundai i 30s will still do over 200... camrys will do near 190... i even have a hyundai accent 1.5 that sits on over 200 after it got a run up down hill (and 185 on the flat)(gps proven in NT). Any car can do well over 150...

All cars are obviously dangerous, and in fact falcons are the least dangerous as they are often speed limited at 180 or something :-) , not like those i30s and elantras that are speed limited at 210 (which is over their top speed)!

I reckon you could probably push 220km/h+ in an RX8 which is legal.

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Here we go, one more push and it will be Lancers and Fiestas all round untill 25 if the media have it there way..

That would be hilarious, imagine the traffic light grand prix, it'd be like the V8 Supercar series.

Fiesta vs Mazda 2 vs Suzuki Swift vs Nanny on her mobility scooter.

[4Vman]

Allot of you are missing the point.... Power restrictions are not just about stopping kids get hold of dangerous vehicles and trying to prevent them from "hooning", they're also about safety and preventing well meaning but a little over exuberant inexperienced kids getting into dangerous situations where too much power or acceleration catches them out....

Its not just the "hoon" factor these laws are aimed at....

[JACK250]

If anything I tend to agree with that article... As someone who will be going for my P's in a year I think it's a joke that I can drive a new XR6, but I can't have a 260 V8 Mustang that would barely pull the skin off a rice pudding

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

That would be hilarious, imagine the traffic light grand prix, it'd be like the V8 Supercar series..


Fiesta vs Mazda 2 vs Suzuki Swift vs Nanny on her mobility scooter.

The Media refuses to see that no matter what is getting driven it will get Thrashed, Raced, Modfied & Crashed.

Originally Posted by JACK250

If anything I tend to agree with that article... As someone who will be going for my P's in a year I think it's a joke that I can drive a new XR6, but I can't have a 260 V8 Mustang that would barely pull the skin off a rice pudding

It is a very stupid system, the sooner we get to the 4cylinder Regs the sooner they will also fail, then maybe, just maybe Australia will start on driver education.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Allot of you are missing the point.... Power restrictions are not just about stopping kids get hold of dangerous vehicles and trying to prevent them from "hooning", they're also about safety and preventing well meaning but a little over exuberant inexperienced kids getting into dangerous situations where too much power or acceleration catches them out....

Its not just the "hoon" factor these laws are aimed at....

I understand that but the laws don't make sense as you can't drive something solely because it has a V8 but the new 6s which are more powerful are fine.

Originally Posted by FPV8U

It is a very stupid system, the sooner we get to the 4cylinder Regs the sooner they will also fail, then maybe, just maybe Australia will start on driver education.

Nah then we'd be on smart cars and Suzuki Alto's, 3 cylinders and 1000CC of Indian muscle for the Alto. Mind you we'd still probably be able to drive the RX8s because its a rotary and its classed as 1.3L.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

The Media refuses to see that no matter what is getting driven it will get Thrashed, Raced, Modfied & Crashed.




It is a very stupid system, the sooner we get to the 4cylinder Regs the sooner they will also fail, then maybe, just maybe Australia will start on driver education.

It already exists.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

It already exists.

My Mistake.

Compulsory Driver education, thats not just for young drivers either.

[davez104]

Stuff like this really gets under my skin. If you go 10km/h over the speed limit, your gonna die. If you have 10kws over our limit, your gonna die. How about if you can't drive, your gonna die, how come that one never gets a run? They always seem to aim for the easy targets and it never seems to make any difference to the road toll. People need better training right from the word go. The indestructible attitude of some of todays generation isn't really helping either, though that has probably been present to some extent since Adam was a boy.

Dave.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

My Mistake.

Compulsory Driver education, thats not just for young drivers either.

What do you mean? The current laws already outline what's appropriate driving standards and behaviour. If people wont obey these laws then what? you can tell them a thousand times but if they wont comply all the education in the world is useless.

[Franco Cozzo]

Might just be the attitude of the Australian driver, look at countries like Finland with their compulsory skinpan day and things like that or Germany with their autobahn and how much their licensing costs.

How do you fix attitude?

Lets make everyone do "the knock" as part of their Ps test.

Hell, most of my mates said that they'd be responsible drivers and they won't speed and be safe, two of them drink and drive and one constantly sits on 140+ everywhere, the other one who we predicted would be dead before he turns 19 hasn't got his license yet due to laziness. Its not only P platers who are prone to doing stupid things either, aunty is sitting on her 4th DUI and STILL DOES drink drive as I've said many times before here.

You know what we should do, get everyone in their cars on a skid pan, to drive around cones and stop and everything like that, then shout them a few beers and see how their reactions and mentality changes when they're tanked and behind the wheel.