Brake fluid for MB

NZ XR6 · 26-03-2017, 01:03 AM

"Super DOT 4 meeting Ford Specification WSS-M6C57-A2"

Are there any fluids that meet this apart from the Ford stuff? I used the Penrite fluid in the red bottle as it at least meets M6C55.

Not the easiest brake fluid change I've ever done. I take the cap off the reservoir to suction out the old fluid... Nope, can't do that. Can't see how much fluid is left either, so it took a 500 ml bottle just to flush out the old fluid. At least that was dyed green, so I could see when it was gone.

Different size bleed nipples on the front and rear calipers - 9 and 11 mm???

Very limited access to rear bleed nipple - can't fit a hose clip onto it, so the hose keeps coming off which results in brake fluid all over the caliper and the drive. At least the front nipples are very easy to use.

I might just pay someone next time, but then I would have to make sure that they use the correct fluid.

At least the brake pedal feels firmer after the fluid change.

**russellw** · 26-03-2017, 08:17 AM

The Penritre Super DOT4 is the only one rated to that specification available in this country.

Cheers
Russ

NZ XR6 · 26-03-2017, 08:40 AM

10 minutes online and I have my answer ...

What should be specified is ISO 4925 Class 6. This is designed for ABS / EBD / ESP systems, and is lower viscosity than any of the DOT fluids, although DOT 5.1 is probably close enough. And unlike a lot of the fluid spec alphabet soup, apparently this does make a difference. It won't have any effect in everyday driving, but it might be enough to avoid a crash the day you need one of the safety systems.

I don't know about the specified Ford fluid, but I doubt that it meets ISO 6 as it is labelled Super DOT 4. The new Penrite ESP fluid meets this spec.

Also, WSS-M6C57-A2 has been superseded about 4 times by newer Ford specs, so don't go looking for it.

NZ XR6 · 26-03-2017, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russellw

The Penritre Super DOT4 is the only one rated to that specification available in this country.

Cheers
Russ

Thanks. What do the Ford service departments use?

NZ XR6 · 26-03-2017, 09:03 AM

Here are a couple of links.

ATE SL6: http://www.ate-na.com/www/ate_us_en/...bf_sl6_us.html
Penrite ESP: http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...d_products=786

rondeo · 26-03-2017, 10:38 AM

More alphabet soup:

My MC owner's service guide specifies SUPER DOT 4.

"What is Super DOT 4?
Super Dot 4’s meet the DOT 5.1 boiling temp. specification but, their low temperature viscosity characteristics is DOT 4."

from:

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pd...FEB%202015.pdf

So mistakenly using dot 4 as I did shouldn't affect low temp ABS performance. I'll be changing again it soon.

NZ XR6 · 26-03-2017, 11:53 AM

Quote from the ATE website: "Most vehicle manufacturers already use the low-viscosity DOT 4, Class 6 (ISO 4925) brake fluids in production cars (OEM and OES)"

The important spec is the ISO Class 6, not whatever DOT it is. However, DOT 5.1 has similar low temp viscosity, so would be a better choice than DOT 4. What is annoying is that I nearly picked up the Repco DOT 5.1 instead of the Penrite Super DOT 4, but Ford say Super DOT 4 so I went with it.

I'll look for some Class 6 fluid and will change it again when it starts to get cold - we can have quite low morning temps even in Auckland.

rondeo · 26-03-2017, 12:23 PM

Maybe this one:

http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/44AD26A8A0A73CD2802580050037D4C5/$File/BPXE-ACTGAY.pdf
"
Castrol React DOT4 Low Temp brake fluid meets the new ISO 4925 Class 6 specification recommend by many vehicle
manufacturers including VW, BMW and GM Europe. This fluid also meets the requirements of Ford WSS-M6C65-A2"

NZ XR6 · 26-03-2017, 12:44 PM

Thanks. Hopefully I can find it here.

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rondeo · 26-03-2017, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

Quote from the ATE website: "Most vehicle manufacturers already use the low-viscosity DOT 4, Class 6 (ISO 4925) brake fluids in production cars (OEM and OES)"

The important spec is the ISO Class 6, not whatever DOT it is. However, DOT 5.1 has similar low temp viscosity, so would be a better choice than DOT 4. What is annoying is that I nearly picked up the Repco DOT 5.1 instead of the Penrite Super DOT 4, but Ford say Super DOT 4 so I went with it.

I'll look for some Class 6 fluid and will change it again when it starts to get cold - we can have quite low morning temps even in Auckland.

According to this:

http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/A3A904448D49282380257C2B001CEE1A/$File/Castrol%20Brake%20Fluid%20DOT%204%5F466630%5F2013% 5F10.pdf

Castrol DOT4 has lower viscosity than Penrite DOT5.1.

The following values are from the manufacturer's data sheets:

Kinematic Viscosity at -40 deg C. (mm/s, 1mm/s=1cSt)

Penrite DOT4 ESP 700
Penrite DOT5.1 820
Penrite Super DOT4 1147
Castrol React DOT4 Low Temp 650
Castrol DOT4 Brake Fluid 700
Castro React Performance DOT4 1250
Nulon Super DOT4 1231

On the ABS, ESP and viscosity theory in the ate article,
Castrol DOT4 should not result in a slower response time.

Corrosion control, boiling point etc aside.

So I'm not too worried about having mistakenly used Castrol DOT4. The only problem at the moment is the dots floating before my eyes.

NZ XR6 · 26-03-2017, 07:10 PM

Surely the viscosity of 700 at -40° for normal Castrol DOT 4 is a mistake? It's stated as 1200 in the UK data sheet.

Using normal DOT 4 instead of Super DOT 4 shouldn't affect low temperature performance.

What isn't clear is what effect the low viscosity has at normal ambient temperatures. There are some comments posted in other forums on how ABS improved after using the ATE SL6 fluid.

My take on this is that most Euro manufacturers have used low viscosity DOT 4 as factory fill for many years now, but the aftermarket is only just catching up.

NZ XR6 · 27-03-2017, 04:43 PM

Pentosin (German OE fluid supplier) publish viscosities at 40 deg for their low vis and super DOT 4 fluids. There isn't much difference. They also give the figure at 20 deg for the Super DOT 4 only.

I can buy their low vis fluid labelled as VW. $32 for 1 litre.

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rondeo · 27-03-2017, 05:05 PM

Penrite's recommended brake fluid (on the internet) for MC Mondeo is Super DOT 4. At the ford dealer I'm told it's Motorcraft Super DOT 4, and you can buy it cheaper at Repco. At Recpco the label reads: For esp brake systems we recommend Penrite DOT 4 ESP brake fluid. Does that mean Super DOT 4 is not recommended or just the other one is safer? And there's this: https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Ford-.../dp/B00BNVK2TY Which has the LV (low viscosity suffix). While at Supercheap I saw SCA branded DOT 5.1 bottled in Queensland. The label read it was suitable for ABS and ESP. ($24/l) I finished up with the Penrite Super DOT 4 on special at Repco for $12/l in 500ml bottles. (DOT 4 ESP at $32/l from Repco.)

Last but not least, Penrites chat reply:

AGENT 4: You can use the ESP although for your model we recommend to use the product you have which is suitable for vehicles with ESP.

WTF?

NZ XR6 · 27-03-2017, 05:37 PM

The Penrite ESP is new so maybe they haven't updated their recommendations?

I really don't know about all of this. I can't find any details of the Ford spec without paying $40 to buy the standard - for all I know, it may be a LV fluid. VW has required a LV fluid for years now, as do some other manufacturers.

All of the ESC units in Euro vehicles are made by Bosch, but their Australian website doesn't even list a LV fluid???

Can't find any ATE or Pentosin fluid in NZ, so I'll probably visit a VW dealer and get their stuff, which is made by Pentosin. They also do DCT fluids.

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rondeo · 27-03-2017, 05:44 PM

It looks to me VW has a better technical information system than Ford.

Being a Ford DIYer is really hard these days.

NZ XR6 · 28-03-2017, 07:35 AM

Someone did a viscosity test on YouTube, LOL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpMcG3WiN8M

A local parts chain (BNT) sell their own brand of LV fluid. I think that I'll run the Penrite Super DOT 4 for a while, do some ABS tests on wet roads, then change to a LV fluid and see if there's any difference. Or I may just forget the whole thing ...

rondeo · 28-03-2017, 08:41 AM

I took the car for a skid in a gravel carpark to flush old fluid from the ABS unit, don't know if it worked though. At least the ABS did.

Best to use a service function I guess, but Forscan doesn't have one as far as I can tell.

I'm still looking at the label on the bottle of Penrite recommended for MC Mondeo Super DOT 4 which reads:

Note: For ESP (Electronic Stability Program) brake systems we recommend Penrite DOT 4 ESP brake fluid.

Given all MC Mondeos have ESP my obsessive attempt to see logic got the better of me for a while.

I think I'm over it now.

NZ XR6 · 28-03-2017, 09:19 AM

Penrite also recommend HPR 5 Diesel for the diesel, then say it's not suitable for vehicles with a DPF. At least they recognize their mistake, unlike Ford.

HPR DIESEL 5 is NOT suitable for vehicles fitted with a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) that require a low SAPS engine oil. Penrite Enviro+ Engine Oils should be used on vehicles fitted with a DPF. We recommend checking the recommendation guide for the correct grade and specification.

NZ XR6 · 28-03-2017, 10:38 AM

I found this at the local BNT. Same bottle as Penrite and Repco - made by Orthene in the UK. $7.50 for 500 ml.

Worth noting that this has slightly lower dry and wet BP than the Penrite Super DOT 4. I assume this is why it's called DOT 4.

rondeo · 28-03-2017, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

Someone did a viscosity test on YouTube, LOL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpMcG3WiN8M

A local parts chain (BNT) sell their own brand of LV fluid. I think that I'll run the Penrite Super DOT 4 for a while, do some ABS tests on wet roads, then change to a LV fluid and see if there's any difference. Or I may just forget the whole thing ...

Another laugh here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e43BX3NMcaM

I like hunny.

And interesting gumph here:

http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-...e-brake-fluid/

Which appears to contradict various other gumph I've been trying to digest.

NZ XR6 · 28-03-2017, 02:10 PM

Did my own test with a small, plastic measuring cylinder. Drilled a 1.5 mm hole and compared the times for the level to drop 20ml.

The Super DOT 4 took 17 seconds and the LV DOT 4, 16 seconds. Both times were very consistent. Ambient temperature was 26 deg.

I'll check again on a cold winters morning!

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NZ XR6 · 28-03-2017, 02:58 PM

And a footnote - the Very Expensive Motul 5.1 fluid that I use in the motorbikes comes in the same plastic bottle as Penrite, Repco and BNT. Hmmm.

rondeo · 28-03-2017, 03:28 PM

I like it.

We DIY fools and skinflints are at least having fun.

I'm wondering if Roo is giving credits for having the right fluid.

Why don't they use electric actuators, why do they insist on using fluids that absorb moisture and need replacing every two years?

Anyway, thanks to Penrite etc, or I'd be walking (A long way).

NZ XR6 · 28-03-2017, 04:12 PM

Yes, that was a little bit of fun. I think I'll pass on the LV fluid and go back to DOT 5.1, which I've used for many years. It has reasonably low viscosity and high BP, especially when wet.

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rondeo · 30-03-2017, 08:02 AM

To remove the old fluid from the reservoir on the MC I used some 4mm O.D. pvc tube (to get past the narrow slit) on a 60ml syringe.

I got 300ml out.

Next time (tomorrow on the other car) I'll get some K&S 5/32" brass tubing from the hobby shop because the pvc curls making it hard to reach the bottom.

I used a pressure system with an additional low pressure lpg brazing regulator on the normal compressor and a 1 litre chemical spray bottle and an extra reservoir cap with a barb fitting attached.

I used a low pressure gauge to check the pressure and an air relief valve just in case.
You don't want to blow the top off the reservoir, max pressure is 14psi according to Ford manual.

I find 10 psi works fine.

Having spent two days setting up the system (a few years ago now)I figure it'll take 26 years to save time, but the job is now so much easier and I'll be 94 then . . .

NZ XR6 · 31-03-2017, 12:14 PM

300 ml - was that with the reservoir full? No wonder it took so long to flush out the old fluid.

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NZ XR6 · 01-04-2017, 06:22 AM

I've just been on a 700 km trip on some hilly roads. The pedal is firmer and it seems easier to modulate the brakes.

Three and a bit years was too long.

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rondeo · 01-04-2017, 08:56 AM

The fluid was at the middle between max and min.

Bought some brass tubing 5/32" (3.97mm) which fits perfectly through the slot and sits on the bottom of the reservoir.
Old car antennas are a good source of stainless tubing too.

Best empty the old fluid from the reservoir first, otherwise it just mixes with the new in ever decreasing amounts.

It took 1 litre new fluid to do the job.

When peeping under the bonnet now and then I shine a torch at the reservoir from above and rock the car a bit to see the level sloshing. Otherwise its very hard to tell.