Fog Lights, what is the big deal?

geckoGT · 30-06-2005, 10:00 AM

In some states it is not illegal to drive with fog lights on during clear conditions, I do not want to start a discussion regarding legallity, that has been covered.

What I do want to know is why have peole got such a strong hatred for fog lights? I am referring to factory set ups (55w or less and set lower than low beam) and I am not discussing driving lights (they are normally stronger and set higher and with high beam circuit)

I can not understand how anyone can say that fog lights shine in your eyes. A true fog light is set lower than a low beam, in fact the fog light beam ends in the first half of the low beam and of equivalent wattage to the low beam. I am sorry but any complaint that they shine in the eyes of other motorists, I have one thing to say, impossible!

The way that I see it, they can not shine in the eyes of other motorists and they add a little more visibility on the road, which is a good thing. I have looked at the fog lights of other XR's,SS etc and I do not believe they shine in the eyes of other motorists. My wife agrees with me and also does not see what all the fuss is about.

What is the general opinion here, I don't want to hear "they are called fog lights for a reason" (pointless statement that does prove anything) or "it is illegal", I want to know if peole do think they dazzle other motorists and why it is possible?

I have fog lights and so does my wife, we both drive with them on because of safety. It is not against the law in QLD and I consider any aid to help other motorists to know I am there to be a good thing. I am forever going to accidents at work where at least one person involved says "I just did not see them".

I wonder if it is a fog light envy situation. When more cars come out with them, is it going to be better accepted?

johnydep · 30-06-2005, 10:18 AM

I have had fog lights shine in my eyes at night in cty/suburb driving, it annoys the crap out of me. I'm not sure which vehcles they are, but I have noticed Commodores.

Fog lights give a large spread of light thatis designed to be as wide as possible, this light spreads into tthe sight of oncoming traffic.
Headlights are designed to give a straight ahead light & it does not spread into the oncoming traffics line of sight.
You'll find that cars produced for left & right hand drive markets will have different light paterns.

Have a look at the pictures here http://www.autoanything.com/shopping...e=hella_lights
Take into account that the pictures are for the right hand driver market.

geckoGT · 30-06-2005, 10:45 AM

Johnnydep

From the web page that you posted

Fog Light Beam Pattern will improve your vision in fog, heavy rain or snow by enhancing your vehicle's low beams. The low and wide light pattern improves side visibility and prevents stray light from offending oncoming traffic. The distance of illumination is similar to your vehicle's original low beam.

This statement actually backs my point, a true fog light is aimed too low to shine in the eyes of oncoming traffic.

I think it is time to get out the digi camera to demonstrate this.

Smoke Pursuit · 30-06-2005, 10:47 AM

........................ Double post.

Smoke Pursuit · 30-06-2005, 10:50 AM

Yeh im with you geckoxr8....

The only ones that annoy me are the VX HSV ones and VX SS... they seem to be really bright, but Holden has toned them down in later models. The BA on the other hand don't really bother me but I don't think they should be used at nite.

SunDrifter · 30-06-2005, 11:24 AM

fog light envy... pure and simple.

There are aways bombadores, scoobiedoos and falcons running around at night with them on. I never once thought... "gee those fog lights are straining the old ogglers".

Aftermarket ones, especially ones that dont fit into the orig bodywork, may be a problem. But thats really the problem for the person that installed them.

johnydep · 30-06-2005, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Johnnydep

From the web page that you posted

Fog Light Beam Pattern will improve your vision in fog, heavy rain or snow by enhancing your vehicle's low beams. The low and wide light pattern improves side visibility and prevents stray light from offending oncoming traffic. The distance of illumination is similar to your vehicle's original low beam.

This statement actually backs my point, a true fog light is aimed too low to shine in the eyes of oncoming traffic.

I think it is time to get out the digi camera to demonstrate this.

Good ones are probably fine, but lately more & more people are driving with their fogs on, and some do spread light in an annoying way, like I mentions so far I think it's only some Commodores.

I'll take more notice.

johnydep · 30-06-2005, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

fog light envy... pure and simple.

.................

Fog light envy?

I have them on my Territory Ghia, why should I be envious of other other vehicles fog lights?
:1syellow1

SunDrifter · 30-06-2005, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnydep

Fog light envy?

I have them on my Territory Ghia, why should I be envious of other other vehicles fog lights?
:1syellow1

I was just referring to the general public opinion of them, not to yours.

:

#Russ#Es# · 30-06-2005, 01:02 PM

Its not just the direct light that can be a problem. In many instances, especially when roads are used often and are a little greasy, the light can reflect from the oncoming car into your eyes because the fog lights are so low...as others have said, some cars are worse than others, but the type of road (bluemetal surface, etc) you drive on often has alot to do with it as well.

LTDHO · 30-06-2005, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

fog light envy... pure and simple.

Ha ha ha ha ha - Ya joking right?

They distract on coming vehicles. Why would anyone be envious as they are only $50 from autobarn. They are a ricer crase started years ago, the motor companies saw it an applied it! Pure and Simple!

I fitted them to my 4x4 and use them only in fog conditions. They point down and are used solely for those conditions, not in the evening or during the day.

geckoGT · 30-06-2005, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #Russ#Es#

Its not just the direct light that can be a problem. In many instances, especially when roads are used often and are a little greasy, the light can reflect from the oncoming car into your eyes because the fog lights are so low...as others have said, some cars are worse than others, but the type of road (bluemetal surface, etc) you drive on often has alot to do with it as well.

I can see a point here, that may happen although it would be rather rare and most likely in wet weather. I doubt this would be a problem in the dry unless the fog lights have more powerful globes fitted, in which case, according to the ADR's they are no longer fog lights by definition. It is also a situation that low beams may present in the right circumstances (albeit at different range between vehicles because of the angles).

My question in this thread only applies to fog lights that are fitted to the vehicle correctly and in accordance with the relevant ADR's.

In considering this post, I ask all those that are going to reply ask themselves if they have ever had a situation when they have been surprised by "the car came from nowhere, I didn't see him" situation. This is the situation where on the first look you didn't see them but on the second look or after pulling out etc, they were there (hope you avoided the accident).

It may seem that I am on a program of public education, and I suppose I am. This is because of the number of crashes that I attend because one person did not see the other. If I had my way, it would be illegal to drive a car without at least one set of lights on, any time of the day and any conditions. I am tired of scraping innocent people out of cars because one person did not see the other. Perhaps those that don't like them so much would think differently if they were woken at night with recollections of the last kid they had to keep alive while the firies cut them out of a twisted car, because another person "did not see them".

If someone can prove to me that properly mounted fog lights that comply with ADR's cause another motorist to be "Dazzled", I will reassess my thoughts on the matter. Personally I can not see that they would and despite many hours of logical contemplation, can not see any reason. I spend the greater part of my working day driving in a large variety of conditions. While I am doing this I sometimes take note of various headlight systems (because of my interest in the matter). Not once have I been dazzled by a correctly set up and ADR compliant fog light. I have been dazzled by an incorrectly set low beam/fog light or a low beam on a 4wd on numerous occasions but that is a different story.

Sometimes I wonder if it is a case of people being adverse to change, which is in human nature. Fog lights are reasonably new and is it a case of people not liking them mainly because they are new and not what they are used to? Remember at one stage seat belts were new and met resistance because they were a change, now they are widely accepted. Are we going to be at a point in 10 yrs time when every car has fog lights and people more widely accept them? Food for thought anyway!

In the meantime, I will continue to drive my XR and my wife will continue to drive her Mazda 3 with fog lights and low beam on during the day. With any luck, we will be seen on the road and kept safe. I would hate to have one of my work mates having to keep my family or myself alive in a twisted car because we were not seen. My intention is not to feature in a paramedic nightmare! It is not a "look at me. do you like my car" situation, it is a "see me and don't pull out in front of me" situation.

Be seen and stay safe!

Lynton

Smoke Pursuit · 30-06-2005, 03:27 PM

I am with you Lynton... I will continue to drive with mine on during the day until someone decides to fine me... I have done numerous defensive driving courses and the instructors have always said you have a better chance of being seen in the day if you have some form of lights on.

As for people not liking them, most of them don't have them and thats why they dont like them!

johnydep · 30-06-2005, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

I can see a point here, that may happen although it would be rather rare and most likely in wet weather. I doubt this would be a problem in the dry unless the fog lights have more powerful globes fitted, in which case, according to the ADR's they are no longer fog lights by definition. It is also a situation that low beams may present in the right circumstances (albeit at different range between vehicles because of the angles).

My question in this thread only applies to fog lights that are fitted to the vehicle correctly and in accordance with the relevant ADR's.

In considering this post, I ask all those that are going to reply ask themselves if they have ever had a situation when they have been surprised by "the car came from nowhere, I didn't see him" situation. This is the situation where on the first look you didn't see them but on the second look or after pulling out etc, they were there (hope you avoided the accident).

It may seem that I am on a program of public education, and I suppose I am. .........................
Be seen and stay safe!

Lynton

I agree.
Be seen and stay safe! but don't dazzle!

Back to; http://www.autoanything.com/shopping...e=hella_lights
and the quote you mentioned;
Fog Light Beam Pattern will improve your vision in fog, heavy rain or snow by enhancing your vehicle's low beams. The low and wide light pattern improves side visibility and prevents stray light from offending oncoming traffic. The distance of illumination is similar to your vehicle's original low beam.
This is describing the light usage in the situation it has been designed for Driving in Fog. Any other time the light will spread into oncoming traffic, even if it is low.
The picture says it all.

http://www.driveandstayalive.com/z-ada/ada-safety1.htm

Quote:

Fog Lights To prevent uncomfortable and possibly dangerous glare for oncoming drivers, use front fog lights only in conditions of significant fog or heavily falling snow. Leaving them on at other times is either selfish or thoughtless and is symptomatic of a bad driver.

The purpose of front fog lights (and the reason they are mounted low down) is to aid a driver's view when visibility is badly reduced, when ordinary headlights create a reflective glare that actually makes it harder for the driver using them.

In some States it is illegal top drive with Fog lights on in the City, why is that?

I agree with driving with lights on, but use the lights that have been designed for this purpose; headlights on low beam, or parkers.

geckoGT · 30-06-2005, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnydep

I agree.
Be seen and stay safe! but don't dazzle!

Back to; http://www.autoanything.com/shopping...e=hella_lights
and the quote you mentioned;
Fog Light Beam Pattern will improve your vision in fog, heavy rain or snow by enhancing your vehicle's low beams. The low and wide light pattern improves side visibility and prevents stray light from offending oncoming traffic. The distance of illumination is similar to your vehicle's original low beam.
This is describing the light usage in the situation it has been designed for Driving in Fog. Any other time the light will spread into oncoming traffic, even if it is low.
The picture says it all.

http://www.driveandstayalive.com/z-ada/ada-safety1.htm

In some States it is illegal top drive with Fog lights on in the City, why is that?

I agree with driving with lights on, but use the lights that have been designed for this purpose; headlights on low beam, or parkers.

It is actually illegal to drive with park lights on. They are only to mark the front of a vehicle if it is stopped for an extended duration in an area of traffic. Used in the correct way, people should be able to assume the vehicle is stationary.

In most states it is not illegal to drive with fog lights on, why is that?

geckoGT · 30-06-2005, 04:50 PM

By the way your quote contradicts itself, one moment it says it will not spread into oncoming traffic and then it says it will, which is it?

johnydep · 30-06-2005, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

It is actually illegal to drive with park lights on. They are only to mark the front of a vehicle if it is stopped for an extended duration in an area of traffic. Used in the correct way, people should be able to assume the vehicle is stationary.
...................
By the way your quote contradicts itself, one moment it says it will not spread into oncoming traffic and then it says it will, which is it?

Volvo have always had the park lights come on automatically when the engine is started.
It is not illegal to drive with Parkers on. The rear park lights are a different brightness to the brake lights and are on with all vehicles when driving at night.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

By the way your quote contradicts itself, one moment it says it will not spread into oncoming traffic and then it says it will, which is it?

What it means is that fog lights are designed to have a diffused light that does not reflect off the fog. So any spread light is not a problem in the fog.
Head lights have a pinpoint light which reflects back off the fog, giving little visibility.
Fog lights are designed for use in the fog. The fog stops a percentage of the spread light from causing glare to oncoming drivers. Hence the name Fog lights
When no fog is present the light can not be diffused by the fog, so the oncoming driver gets the full glare of the spread light of a fog light. As the picture shows.

Feathers · 30-06-2005, 05:16 PM

I've only had problems with WRX lights, and the new Commodores. The Commodore ones seemed to be aimed to high, but the rex ones probably had been "modified" by the moron owning the car.
The lights I remember from the rex actually made my eyes water so much that I had to pull over for a good 10 minutes to recover.

I use the lights on my XR, but then so do 9/10 other XR's I've seen around, and they have never dazzled me.

Keepleft · 30-06-2005, 05:21 PM

GeckoXR8 wrote "If someone can prove to me that properly mounted fog lights that comply with ADR's cause another motorist to be "Dazzled", I will reassess my thoughts on the matter".

To start on the topic:
The Holden Commodore SS front fog lights notably on series VX - VY are NOT European Code. Australia's ADR on automotive lighting matters is based generally on the 'European Code' called "ECE". ECE Regulations are then administered via the United Nations for world homologation by states parties where they then become "UNECE" items.

The Holden Commodore SS type highlighted are 'recognised glaries' by all State Australian Road Authorities, I can tell you they/we receive hundreds of complaints as to 'glary fog lights', which I personally put down to this particular model. The SS is a relatively common vehicle and have given COMPLIANT fog lights, like those on your Falcon, a 'bad name'.

They have been discontinued and on the current SS, which now run COMPLIANT E-marked front fogs again.

HSV cars have always used E marked front fog lights.

Any compliant front fog light, will cause undue glare IF it is fitted with wattages exeeding 55 watts on a 12 volt system, which also contravenes compliance in doing so. OR, if the lamp has been adjusted too high, or sideways and so on. Folk, do not mess with front fog lights and only use E marked replacement bulbs in them.

The Commodore SS front fog lights of the recognised glary nature, were made in Sth Korea, sold to GMH here in Australia, the supplier gave GMH who in turn gave DOTARS, the Department of Transport and Regional Services the required "EVIDENCE OF COMPLIANCE".

This lamp makers evidence was automatically accepted without further testing by an independent testing authority, as is nearly always the case!!!

DOTARS could, on having testing the lamp, forced a recall on GMH IF the lamp was not to standard. The DOTARS section responsible is TRADE COMPLIANCE.

Most all forward facing automotive lamps bear an E MARK. This mark represents "photometric compliance" and ADR acceptance. You can liken it to a mark of quality for the consumer.

On the SS front fog lamp under question, NO E mark is evident. This means simply, the lamp could NOT be fitted to a new market vehicle sold in Europe.

This subject lamp, when set against a light wall shows TWO distinct flat planes of light with a HOT SPOT (the main glary part) in the middle! It should show a single flat plane.

Now we go to the aftermarket which can also create glary products: One aftermarket so called front fog lamp, is yellow, and sold as the "Tourismo" by Haigh Australia. It use to be supplied with 100 watt bulbs! On complaint from NRMA and self, they generously dropped the wattage to 55, and continued to sell them, afterall 'we sell thousands of em'. They are not fog lights! What they are, is based on old French regulation for high-beam where that used to be 'yellow'! The Aussie buyer goes overseas mid 1980's, sees a cheap yellow light, decides through ignorance fog lights are only yellow and so brings it here all re-packaged to sell as fog lights.

A compliant front fog light will show the following on the lens or very near it; "02B", the B or b is relevant.

A driving light will show "HR". R is relevant to driving light. H=halogen, PL = plastic lens.

A North American front fog lamp will show the mark vis; "SAE F xx. F=fog. A "Y" = driving light under SAE North American market.

So the lesson, only buy compliant lamp and bulb products, these will always bear an E mark, install and wire per ADR or the Vehicle Standards. Remember that in forward lighting for 'driving lights', compliance is achieved at 55 watts. Owing this nations area, most authorities rightly accept higher wattages, 100, 130 etc. But don't do it with front fogs, here you need reduced glare, not more.

FRONT FOG LIGHT USE
In the United Kingdom, which has the EXACT same standards, front fog light use is restricted to hazardous weather conditions, rain, fog, snowfall, where visibility is 100 metres or less.

The remainder of EU, with the exact same standards, of course, does not impose a GB like 100 metre visibility maximum criteria, but restricts the use of front fogs to hazardous weather conditions.

Australia does not restrict via the Australian Road Rules the use of front fog lights in clear conditions, as it does with rear fog lights ar Rule 217. But , NSW and WA will fine you for having front fog lights on in the clear, in addition, NSW will remove a point from your license for causing 'undue glare' from 1 July 05.

NOT having your lights turned on at night or in hazardous weather conditions (low beam and or front fogs) will also land you a point loss.

There is this, front fogs are designed for use in rain, snowfall and fog, they can be used in bushfire smoke and on gravel roads where visibility is restricted by dust caused by other traffic. Front fog lamps are not daytime running lamps, DRL's.

I do not support this nations motoring groups in their campaign for DRL's, but suggest the driver is best to know when 'lights' are needed, those lights are the low beam.

Gecko, whilst having spoken with QLD Minister's office today on the matter, IF you continue to drive with your front fog lights on, that you keep your low-beam off so the forward indicators can be seen a little better, on some cars the low beam is set next to the indicator and that can be masked by the headlights more powerful beam, a little.

www.lightsout.org

Johnydep wrote "Volvo have always had the park lights come on automatically when the engine is started".

Wrong: These were Scandanavian daytime running lamps bearing P21 watt bayonet bulbs.

He continues; "It is not illegal to drive with Parkers on".
Park lights are actually 'sidelights' in ADR/ECE Regulations, though we refer to them as parking lights in driver manuals, It is illegal nationwide at night or in "hazardous weather conditions causing reduced visibility" to drive with only your park lights" ALONE, DAY OR NIGHT in those conditions. From July 1 in NSW you will lose 1 demerit point off your license.

You say "The rear park lights are a different brightness to the brake lights and are on with all vehicles when driving at night".

Yes. And a rear fog light is brighter again. We shall eventually adopts EU's 50 metre rule for enforcement with this worthwhile lamp.

geckoGT · 30-06-2005, 05:34 PM

So my interpretation of all that is that as long as I have not messed with my compliant fog lights (which I have not) and I drive with my fog lights on only, I am
1 maximising my visibility to other road users
2 allowing them to adequately see my indicators (very good idea)
3 not likely to cause excessive glare to other road users (tested by authorities)
4 not breaking QLD state road law
5 maximising my safety

Is that correct, please ellaborate if not

Thanks

Lynton

outback_ute · 30-06-2005, 05:49 PM

Lynton, I too agree with having lights on during the day, I do on country roads. I’m not going to argue that fog lights “dazzle” because if they are properly aimed they shouldn’t. However I do think that they detract from road safety in some circumstances.

Heavy suburban traffic at dusk or night time, particularly on multi-lane roads. There is no benefit in having fog lights on because they only shine as far as the car in front and the side of the road is lit up by the headlights of the cars in front of you. (convince me otherwise?) However drivers travelling the other way have double the amount of light shining at them which makes it harder to see because of the greater contrast to dark or non-illuminated objects – even though there is not direct dazzling.

If it is raining the wet road reflects a lot of light – I have experienced this to the point where it is impossible to see lane markings in some cases. Again I am talking about heavy traffic so general visibility necessitating the use of fog lights is not necessary.

A question I have is when you already have your headlights on, how do foglights make you “more visible” as the function of having the noticeable light source is performed by the headlights? Surely one or the other is sufficient? Part of road safety is consideration for other road users.

Here is an example of what the difference having fog lights on makes to other drivers. It is a photo of a Saab with one blown fog light, and I did not consider the light to be misaligned either. Please excuse the poor photo quality, it still gives an accurate depiction of what it was like.

Keepleft · 30-06-2005, 05:56 PM

Gecko wrote:
So my interpretation of all that is that as long as I have not messed with my compliant fog lights (which I have not) and I drive with my fog lights on only, I am
1 maximising my visibility to other road users
* But low-beam will do the job too. It's also how your fog lights are perceived by other traffic.

2 allowing them to adequately see my indicators (very good idea)
* ONLY if you keep low-beam off.

3 not likely to cause excessive glare to other road users (tested by authorities)
* E mark is granted on the lamp itself using the standard 55w@12v, it must then be installed per regulations, ie wiring and mounting.

4 not breaking QLD state road law
For the moment, according to Ministers offsider, no. But he advises after having searched for legislation that that might well change.

5 maximising my safety
It's your option in QLD, but low beam can do the job, even if that 'might' lower the visibility of your front indicator to traffic ahead.

People should not use front fog lights as 'driving lights' at night, their maximum reach is up to 50 metres, but typically 10 - 30 metres at most, they do show up the sides a the road better, but close-in, and at speed in clear conditions at night, will give near zilch warning for you to avoid a high-speed wombat on steroids. Fit a set of driving lights, or upgrade the standard high-beams to an E marked PLUS 50 bulb.

If your serious about driving and do many kilometres, fit a rear fog. For a Falcon XR type the only one I can think of that will fit is Robert Bosch 0 313 109 001. Use a yellow LED 3-pole switch, not the LED duckbill type - too glary!

And buy one of those triangles I mention in my sig!

RED_EL_XR8 · 30-06-2005, 05:57 PM

Great post keepleft, you've managed to present this information in a format that is actually readable and understandable. Can I ask what are your connections etc without you giving too much away..?

johnydep · 30-06-2005, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

GeckoXR8 wrote "If someone can prove to me that properly mounted fog lights that comply with ADR's cause another motorist to be "Dazzled", I will reassess my thoughts on the matter".

To start on the topic:
The Holden Commodore SS front fog lights notably on series VX - VY are NOT European Code. Australia's ADR on automotive lighting matters is based generally on the 'European Code' called "ECE". ECE Regulations are then administered via the United Nations for world homologation by states parties where they then become "UNECE" items.

The Holden Commodore SS type highlighted are 'recognised glaries' by all State Australian Road Authorities, I can tell you they/we receive hundreds of complaints as to 'glary fog lights', which I personally put down to this particular model. The SS is a relatively common vehicle and have given COMPLIANT fog lights, like those on your Falcon, a 'bad name'.

They have been discontinued and on the current SS, which now run COMPLIANT E-marked front fogs again.

HSV cars have always used E marked front fog lights.

Any compliant front fog light, will cause undue glare IF it is fitted with wattages exeeding 55 watts on a 12 volt system, which also contravenes compliance in doing so. OR, if the lamp has been adjusted too high, or sideways and so on. Folk, do not mess with front fog lights and only use E marked replacement bulbs in them.

The Commodore SS front fog lights of the recognised glary nature, were made in Sth Korea, sold to GMH here in Australia, the supplier gave GMH who in turn gave DOTARS, the Department of Transport and Regional Services the required "EVIDENCE OF COMPLIANCE".

This lamp makers evidence was automatically accepted without further testing by an independent testing authority, as is nearly always the case!!!

DOTARS could, on having testing the lamp, forced a recall on GMH IF the lamp was not to standard. The DOTARS section responsible is TRADE COMPLIANCE.

Most all forward facing automotive lamps bear an E MARK. This mark represents "photometric compliance" and ADR acceptance. You can liken it to a mark of quality for the consumer.

On the SS front fog lamp under question, NO E mark is evident. This means simply, the lamp could NOT be fitted to a new market vehicle sold in Europe.

This subject lamp, when set against a light wall shows TWO distinct flat planes of light with a HOT SPOT (the main glary part) in the middle! It should show a single flat plane.

Now we go to the aftermarket which can also create glary products: One aftermarket so called front fog lamp, is yellow, and sold as the "Tourismo" by Haigh Australia. It use to be supplied with 100 watt bulbs! On complaint from NRMA and self, they generously dropped the wattage to 55, and continued to sell them, afterall 'we sell thousands of em'. They are not fog lights! What they are, is based on old French regulation for high-beam where that used to be 'yellow'! The Aussie buyer goes overseas mid 1980's, sees a cheap yellow light, decides through ignorance fog lights are only yellow and so brings it here all re-packaged to sell as fog lights.

A compliant front fog light will show the following on the lens or very near it; "02B", the B or b is relevant.

A driving light will show "HR". R is relevant to driving light. H=halogen, PL = plastic lens.

A North American front fog lamp will show the mark vis; "SAE F xx. F=fog. A "Y" = driving light under SAE North American market.

So the lesson, only buy compliant lamp and bulb products, these will always bear an E mark, install and wire per ADR or the Vehicle Standards. Remember that in forward lighting for 'driving lights', compliance is achieved at 55 watts. Owing this nations area, most authorities rightly accept higher wattages, 100, 130 etc. But don't do it with front fogs, here you need reduced glare, not more.

FRONT FOG LIGHT USE
In the United Kingdom, which has the EXACT same standards, front fog light use is restricted to hazardous weather conditions, rain, fog, snowfall, where visibility is 100 metres or less.

The remainder of EU, with the exact same standards, of course, does not impose a GB like 100 metre visibility maximum criteria, but restricts the use of front fogs to hazardous weather conditions.

Australia does not restrict via the Australian Road Rules the use of front fog lights in clear conditions, as it does with rear fog lights ar Rule 217. But , NSW and WA will fine you for having front fog lights on in the clear, in addition, NSW will remove a point from your license for causing 'undue glare' from 1 July 05.

NOT having your lights turned on at night or in hazardous weather conditions (low beam and or front fogs) will also land you a point loss.

There is this, front fogs are designed for use in rain, snowfall and fog, they can be used in bushfire smoke and on gravel roads where visibility is restricted by dust caused by other traffic. Front fog lamps are not daytime running lamps, DRL's.

I do not support this nations motoring groups in their campaign for DRL's, but suggest the driver is best to know when 'lights' are needed, those lights are the low beam.

Gecko, whilst having spoken with QLD Minister's office today on the matter, IF you continue to drive with your front fog lights on, that you keep your low-beam off so the forward indicators can be seen a little better, on some cars the low beam is set next to the indicator and that can be masked by the headlights more powerful beam, a little.

www.lightsout.org

Johnydep wrote "Volvo have always had the park lights come on automatically when the engine is started".

Wrong: These were Scandanavian daytime running lamps bearing P21 watt bayonet bulbs.

He continues; "It is not illegal to drive with Parkers on".
Park lights are actually 'sidelights' in ADR/ECE Regulations, though we refer to them as parking lights in driver manuals, It is illegal nationwide at night or in "hazardous weather conditions causing educed visibility" to drive with only your park lights" ALONE, DAY OR NIGHT in those conditions. From July 1 in NSW you will lose 1 demerit point off your license.

You say "The rear park lights are a different brightness to the brake lights and are on with all vehicles when driving at night".

Yes. And a rear fog light is brighter again. We shall eventually adopts EU's 50 metre rule for enforcement with this worthwhile lamp.

Thanks for that Keepleft.

It's always good to get an experts opinion, also helps keep everyone up to date with the ever changing road rules.

Rodp · 30-06-2005, 07:18 PM

I doubt it's fog light envy. They're a pet peeve of mine, last night while driving home at 3am in the morning I was required to slow right down and pull to the left when a VY/VZ Crewman and a BA XR was travelling in the opposite direction on Heathcote Rd due to being dazzled by their 'driving lights'. They don't seem to have the intensity of a high beam but perhaps it's just my sight, they diminish my ability to see forward when I'm travelling in the opposite direction on a 1 lane road and dazzle me on a multilane road.
Low beam is fine.

I have fog lights on my car and the only time I would use them was when I was travelling through fog! Nothing to do with envy. I would suggest that they're largely hated because I'm probably not the only one that suffers from being dazzled by them and those that choose to use them put their own vanity over the comfort and safety of others on the road.

cheese · 30-06-2005, 07:38 PM

The previous owner of my EA had installed fog lights and to be honest I don't even know if they work as there's been no fog to test them out.
It doesn't make sense to me to drive during the broad daylight with lights designed for foggy conditions illuminated.Makes as much sense as driving in fine weather with your windscreen wipers activated on a dry screen.

Just my two cents worth.

Amazer · 30-06-2005, 07:51 PM

there called fog lights not daytime running lights yet you guys want to use them in the day and night. They are meant for NSW at least for use in clement weather, e.g foggy, rainy days/nights.

I have them in my 2 cars Factory Fitted Laser Lynx and Late Series Mazda Astina and I hardly use them as I do not find a need unless its raining or foggy or a very dark night on a unlit road.

Rob

geckoGT · 30-06-2005, 09:47 PM

Would an answer be to actually lower the beam (with standard bulb) further than standard. This would allow an aid to being seen (for safety, not vanity, my car has enough of that) and still uninterupted vision of my indicators (I have noticed this problem with low beam on a lot of cars) without blinding others. What do you all think?

geckoGT · 30-06-2005, 09:52 PM

Cheese and amazer, have either of you had someone pull out in front of you or claim they didn't see you? If not, you will!

johnydep · 30-06-2005, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Would an answer be to actually lower the beam (with standard bulb) further than standard. This would allow an aid to being seen (for safety, not vanity, my car has enough of that) and still uninterupted vision of my indicators (I have noticed this problem with low beam on a lot of cars) without blinding others. What do you all think?

I'm going out soon, I'll take note of the car types that cause problems. At the moment I can only recall certain late model Commodores & I think one Jap model, I can remember having a problem with a Falcon, but I'll keep an eye open.

Having a lower watage than standard should make a big difference, but can you get lower than 55W?